CTCRC Classes for Alfasuds

[Marlow Sud]

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm how the Alfasud Ti and Alfasud Sprint fit into the classifications?
Its essential if you want to build the fastest possible car within the rules. Any help would be much appreciated.

1. They are both Alfasuds but the Alfasud Ti is a type 901 and the Alfasud Sprint is a type 902 so they are different models? or is the Alfasud considered a model?
2. They are both saloon cars marketed before 1st Jan 1983.
3. Both 901 & 902 had more than 5000 cars produced in any one 12 months.
4. The Alfasud Ti engine size peaked at 1500cc so you can only use a 1500cc block to compete in the championship?
5. The Alfasud Sprint engine size peaked at 1700cc so you can use a 1700cc block to compete in the championship?
6. The 1.5 Sprint was the type 902A5 produced from 1979 to 1988. The 1.7 Sprint was the type 902A6 produced from 1988. Is the 1.7 Sprint introduced in 1987 considered a different model?
I appreciate any input on this.
Brgds,
Simon

[Veesix75]

Simon

I'd suggest you email / ring one of the CTCRC cordinators to be sure.

I've interpreted the rules as needing to stick to what came out of the factory prior to 1983 hence 1500cc being the maximum.

However I didn't read the rules with a view to a 1700 in a Sprint specifically, more as above that the 1700 wasn't introduced until after 1983, and certainly not before dec 31st 1982 hence I couldn't use one - but I'm not sure now you have asked the question.

I see your point in that a Sprint used a 1700 hence would it qualify?

I can tell you 100% for sure that you cannot stroke the engine/block in the CTCRC regs - therefore you cannot make a 1500 into a 1600' nor a 1700 into a 1600.

The invitation class is for cars that don't comply fully to the regs, hence if you did have a 1700 in a sud then it will drop into the invitation class which won't score points (doesn't concern me, I just want to enjoy myself so I'm not too worried about being in class X)

Also remember that if you can validly use a 1700, you will also move up a class into the up to 2 litre - Pintos in fords and such are very quick! With a 1500 you stay in the up to 1600 class and a quick sud could win that class.

My advice is to build any car to comply with the regs, that way you could use it in other classic series in the future, and I'd suggest 1500 offers more options (hscc, scottish classics etc). I thought a lot about the same, stroke to 1600, or even 1700 and have decided to stay with 1500 to keep options open of where to race in the future, or for someone else if I sell it.

However, as above , have a chat to the CTCRC pre 83 coordinator as they will be able to answer quickly I'd have thought.

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the feedback. I have sent an email to Andy Johnson at the CTCRC with these questions and will publish his answers.

All the best,
Simon

PS
The 1.3Ti is a stroked 1.2Ti engine but then I guess they made more than 5000 within 12 months production. The Autodelta Trofeo Suds must have started this trend which read across to the road cars?
My 1.5 SC is stroked to 1600cc I think. I have to verify this.
I have a feeling that you are going to be allowed to put a 1.7QV engine in your Sprint if you want to but I do take your point about how competitive that class is.
I have a 1.5 8V spare engine to use if I want a championship eligible car. But I am relaxed about being in the invitation class...........for now!

[Veesix75]

I'd be interested in the response from the CTCRC.

In terms of stroke, the 1300 (1298) is valid because a 1300 ti was produced at the factory prior to 1983. I had one as a road car.

It's you and I that can't stroke the engine from factory capacity, hence not 1600.

If your Red Sud is 1600, then as you say it would fall into the invitation I think. But I assume it's a 1500 with a 1700 crank, so a crank swap would revert it back.

Anyhow, let's see what the ctcrc come back with.

Thanks

[Roch 1490]

Hi Guys, I have been talking to Richard Murtha & John Wright from CTCRC Pre- 83 as I have some of the same queries,I have a standard 1.7 engine in my Sud which is probably not as quick as a modified 1.5 & not as fast as a Modified 2.0 Escort which will be my Class opposition..I don't really care what Class I,m in & having spoken to John Wright,he seems to think a stand alone Alfa Class would be best.Richard is meeting up with John & the other CTCRC people at the Retro show this weekend to try & sort out where we all fit in, personally I would like all the Alfas in one Class so if Ron Davidson wanted to come out in his 164 (or any others alfas) they would not be put off by what Class they would go in.
I can't wait for it to be sorted as I,m desperate to drive the Sud even if it is at Silverstone!!
I will let you know if I hear anything
Ian

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Ian,
When Tim and I were at Cadwell with the CTCRC last summer we all raced together and it was great fun. It also seems to be very good for the spectators who like to see Capris, Fulvias, Suds, Rover P6 mixing it up.
i guess we were in the invitation class and that was fine by me as i just want to race. My 1.7 fuel injected sprint doesnt comply but i was made very welcome. The CTCRC seem a really nice bunch to the point where the boss was in the paddock after the race and asked us to join.
The classes only matter if you want to do the Championship?
all the best,
Simon

[Veesix75]

any update yet (Ian or Simon)?

The AROC magazine has a page with the CTCRC in it, but no details of what we need to do.

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Ian & Tim,
For what it is worth, I think we should ask that we all race in the pre 83 races. Everyone will have a good time and we will not upset the CTCRC guys as our cars are not quick enough.
Now there is a rash and foolhardy statement.
Somebody may prove me wrong but even a highly modified non compliant car in the invitation class with a great driver will likely be in fourth place at best as the Escorts are just so fast.
So in short, we race together, in harmony with our guests and have a great time.
Whether your car complies with the pre 83 regs and you can win championship points is a separate issue we can leave to each driver.
Off to speak to Bono now to work on world peace.

[Veesix75]

Suits me Simon.

My main thought at the minute is how do we enter....?

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Tim,

Got an email today saying we join the CTCRC via their website.

All the best,
Simon

[Veesix75]

Thanks.

If that's the case then Ian was right, we need to join the BARC also.

[Roch 1490]

Hi Guys.......welll I,m starting to get the hump!! I have been speaking to John Wright from the Pre-83 Touring cars, very nice chap & he has said that the meeting with Richard Murtha & Andy Johnson from CTCRC at the Retro Show went very well & they agreed that running all the Alfas together in their own class was a good idea,there was even a suggestion they would put up a trophy for winner!! BUT today (I feel like the lizard on the First Direct advert!!) I received an email from Mike Bedwell AROC Competition Secretary telling me things about the Alfas racing with CTCRC that Richard Murtha sent us all in an email back in December.....!When I saw the email I thought at last some info on what we're going to be doing,how to enter, decision on Class who was planning on doing Silverstone....alas no just a rallying call to "join the party" well I might be alone in thinking how do we join the party!if this is supposed to be AROCs Motorsport offer to its members then they need to organise it not ask us to get in touch with what ever championship we think our cars might fit in at the CTCRC! how will that ever attract people to come & race?
Ian.

[Roch 1490]

Hi Simon sorry missed your post too busy ranting!! Yes we join CTCRC via their website but how can you fill in form if you don't know what Championship (83,93.2003 etc) or which class.....I have joined BARC but not joining CTCRC until decision made on where Alfas go.Plenty of time only four weeks on Saturday oh don't entries close two weeks before event??
Ian

[Marlow Sud]

Mike Bedwell, Competition Secretary Alfa Romeo Owners Club UK
m.bedwell257@btinternet.com
February 2015
Dear fellow enthusiast,
I am writing to you now as within a few weeks we shall have our first chance this year to race our Alfas with the Classic Touring Car Racing Club at Silverstone on March 28/29 in their 40th Anniversary Race Meeting
Over the last few years we have had some good times with CTCRC and we are lucky to have that club’s hospitality once more in 2015. I believe this is an important opportunity for us to race our cars together again. An opportunity which won’t be forever.
In 2014 AROC suffered financial losses in offering members dedicated Alfa racing and cannot do so again hence this welcome arrangement with CTCRC. It is something we should grab as there are Classes to suit almost every Alfa model made since the war. With your support we can hope to have our own grids too within a few seasons so please recognise the big opportunity this affords our Club.
While this does mean that all of our entrants won't be racing directly against each other, there will still be the opportunity for reviving the Victor Ludorum competition and so there will still be virtual competition between each other. And of course we can have our own get-together over race weekends, although the regular CTCRC bbqs are events not to be missed.
Now is the time to join the party and show your support. Full details of CTCRC calendar, membership, and the various regulations open to us are available at www.classictouringcars.com
There will be Alfas racing at Silverstone and we hope the interest grows and that you will be amongst us and on the grid as often as possible during 2015.
If you have any comments regarding this initiative I really would welcome hearing from you very soon. I look forward to seeing you there.
Good luck.
Mike Bedwell
AROC Competition Secretary

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Simon sorry missed your post too busy ranting!! Yes we join CTCRC via their website but how can you fill in form if you don't know what Championship (83,93.2003 etc) or which class.....I have joined BARC but not joining CTCRC until decision made on where Alfas go.Plenty of time only four weeks on Saturday oh don't entries close two weeks before event??
Ian

Hi Ian,
I can confirm that my three Suds will all be in the pre 83 races. The Sprint and the 1.5SC will be in the invitation class as neither comply with the Regs to earn Championship points.
The Trofeo doesn't comply because the wheels are 8in wide and should be a maximum of 5.5in for a 1300cc car. I can compete with this car in the 1600cc class for Championship points if I want.
Why not race with us in the pre-83 invitation class!
All the best,
Simon

[Ted27sud]

I'm with Ian on this: I received the email and read the pieces in the AROC mag about the races. I am a member of BARC and a few of the proposed Alfa races are at meetings I'll already be racing my Formula Fords at and yet I am none the wiser about whether and how I can enter my Sud in the races. What Richard Murtha and Mike Bedwell should be doing is sending out application forms and entry forms with sets of regulations so that it is clear. When I did the Mallory round in 2013 Sally Langley sent me everything by post (unsolicited) and then emailed me to chivvy me along. That meeting probably had 25 cars entered primarily due to Sally's hard work.

It needs someone from the AROC pushing the events along that knows how these things work. Unfortunately, it seems to me, that the AROC is now run by committees more interested in polishing 105 series cars, organising holidays and polishing senior members egos.

Racing is something that they don't realise give the club real kudos: When I did the Ferrari Championship in 2013 the FOC really embraced the racing and organised club days around the race meetings.

Rant over - I must be in a bad mood!

[PETROLHEAD]

Bad mood or otherwise, i think you're bang on the money Ted, and agree 100%.

If it's not 105, or worth 60+k, they're reluctant to embrace it, or at times it seems even acknowledge it.


Its been said before, by me and many others i suspect, but i think it stems from a fear that the owners of the cars and ego's you mention would not take kindly to a "little Sud" spanking them royally!

Best way for them to avoid that happening, is not to actively encourage you guys to race with them in the first place.



Stick with it fella's, get in where you can, and kick some arse!

[Marlow Sud]

Hi guys,
I am right up for showing how good the Sud is but as a newbie I need you guys to come out to play (when you can) and show us the standard we have to aspire to.
It's just little things that inspire.
I spoke to Adi early in the week and he told me that a good driver can get an 8v Sud round Cadwell in 1:47. Today I looked up my fastest lap in my first race at Cadwell and it was a 1:50.5. I have a way to go but I am really keen to try to get to 1:47.
Adi said he loves showing how capable the Alfa33 is. We must do the same for the Sud.

Green Meanie is pre 83, invitation class Ted and you will be mixing it with the race leaders!

All the best,
Simon

[PETROLHEAD]

Ted and the Green Meanie can do 1:47 at Cadwell Park with me sat next to him,

all 9 stone plus a helmet of me!


no comments on the fact that the helmet must weigh the same as me thank you!



time a good lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf9GpvyQaUE

[Ted27sud]

Fastest I've done in my Sud on Toyos 888 was 1.43. I reckon I could crack the 1.40 mark with a set of slicks and tail wind!

Obviously with Shrew onboard it'd be even quicker - all down to weight distribution and his encouragement?

Being serious - I'm looking at doing the Donington CTCRC race in my Sud and possibly Castle Combe - depends on the timetable as I'll be doing two Formula Ford races at each.

[Marlow Sud]

Thats great Ted.

Very nice video. You were awfully quiet Shrew. You must have been concentrating on the lines.
I liked to see where and how you overtook other cars.

All the best,
Simon

[Ted27sud]

Hi Simon, bear in mind that it was a track day so they're quite strict about overtaking, hence slowing right down a few time going through Charlies 1 and 2 and other places. I once went around the outside of a trackday novice at Chrlies on their first trackday at Cadwell and got quite a dressing down from an instructor!!

Just seen the timetable for Silverstone; all CTCRC races on the Saturday and Formula Ford on the Sunday so that might be feasable for me!

Giving the Sud a run at Cadwell on the 9th March if you'd like to have a run out with me.......

Ted

[Veesix75]

If the Adi you mention is 'Hawkins' then he will be referring to a less modified Sud achieving 1:47 around Cadwell. As Adie is super quick then probably the class D spec suds and 33's.

It would be a stretch to go around as fast as Ted and Bryan in our cars.

Both races on the same day is good!

[Roch 1490]

Hi Guys,loved reading the last few posts.Nords versus Suds.I love all Alfas (maybe not the Arna! ) & I have had Suds for 35 years,I.ve also had a few Nords Alfettas,Giuliettas,Alfa 75 & drove hundreds of 105 Spiders when I was at Bell & Colvill.They just don't match up to a Sud in the driving department!!As Ted said good to polish Having said that I hope we see some Nords out with us this year.
I'm going to try & register with the Pre-83 championship but will either go in 2.0 litre Class with escorts or invitation Class,I assume you have all had Richard Murtha's email, some information at last.
I'm off out to play with Sud & Trailer.
Ian.

[Veesix75]

I think I'm going to go into the invitation for now.

I'm sure other than one small detail the Sprint is within the up to 1600 regs, but invitation makes it all a bit easier.

[Marlow Sud]

If the Adi you mention is 'Hawkins' then he will be referring to a less modified Sud achieving 1:47 around Cadwell. As Adie is super quick then probably the class D spec suds and 33's.

It would be a stretch to go around as fast as Ted and Bryan in our cars.

Both races on the same day is good!

Hi Tim,

I think that at the minute I am focussing on getting the cars on the track. The Sprint is ready. BLS are sorting the Trofeo and the 1.5 SC is in the garage with the engine going back in after a gearbox change. Tom at BLS took the Quaife LSD out of the old box and put it in the overhauled 1.2Ti gearbox. I fitted the gearbox and lifted the engine back in tonight. I will be trying some Ferodo DSUNO pads. How the hell do you get those for a Sud I hear you ask? You buy pads from Demon Tweeks that are the same height and cut the width to that of the Sud pads.
The light units on the car were S2 backplates with S3 plastic trim and Capri lamp units. They fitted so badly that the car looked quite sad. I got two complete new LHD S3 light front light clusters from a fine gentleman on this website and a new grille from Italy and the car is starting to look much better. It should breathe better now. The exhaust gaskets were not cut to fit the larger exhaust ports and the intake trumpets were fitted with one stud and were offset and impeding flow. The carbs were stripped and an overhaul kit fitted as well as drilling and tapping for a new stud for each trumpet. New trumpets (shiny!) and new piper intake filters.

All the best,
Simon

[Marlow Sud]

Looking much prettier.

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Simon, bear in mind that it was a track day so they're quite strict about overtaking, hence slowing right down a few time going through Charlies 1 and 2 and other places. I once went around the outside of a trackday novice at Chrlies on their first trackday at Cadwell and got quite a dressing down from an instructor!!

Just seen the timetable for Silverstone; all CTCRC races on the Saturday and Formula Ford on the Sunday so that might be feasable for me!

Giving the Sud a run at Cadwell on the 9th March if you'd like to have a run out with me.......

Ted

Hi Ted,
I would really like to come along to Cadwell on the 9th. Hoping to pick the Trofeo up and bring it across. I will need to run it in and then change the oil and filter at the track before carrying on. Have just booked for the 9th to include a garage and an extra driver. Can Bryan make it?

Brgds,
Simon

[BS25]

Morning Simon,

I've got the next 5 weeks full of China emissions testing including a two week spell with the Chinese authorities over here so unfortunately I'll not be able to make Cadwell on the 9th.

Good to see you are getting the SC back together - what is the intake trumpet in the front panel feeding?

Regards,

Bryan.

[Marlow Sud]

Hi Bryan,
Thanks for the message. Let's do it another time.
The intake at the front is air to the oil cooler. Not my setup. I inherited it.
Brgds
Simon