A noisy problem

[ricky ricardo]

Don't you just hate it, you rebuild a car thinking you've covered every base then have problems driving it.

First drive in my Sprint I had a clicking while accelerating and what I thought was a crap thrust bearing. I changed the hub and drive shaft as one, clicking noise gone so that's fixed.

I also dropped out the motor & gearbox put in a whole new clutch & thrust bearing. The noise is still there!! I thought because depressing the clutch pedal and noise stopping it had to be the thrust bearing. So there's another problem.
It's a whining noise like a worn out diff but it's a 60,000km car, it's noisy in neutral and stops depressing the clutch. It's louder while accelerating and stops decelerating or unloading the motor going down a hill.

Now I repaired a damaged car that also pushed the engine slightly to the drivers side of the car in the accident, my theory is the CV was damaged because of this and damaged something more.

I drained the gearbox oil and took the sump pan off, the oil is clean and no metal filings were found, everything looks good as new like it should after 60,000km's zero wear in the diff & gearbox the synchro's are perfect and while driving the gearbox works and functions perfect.

I inspected the box when did all the seals and changed the gear selector shaft pictured below with an arrow, I don't think the problems there. I thought the output bearings were good but now I'm wondering if that's the problem (damaged in the accident)
I've got another gearbox on standby from an 84 Sud that's the same so can change the whole box but it's a shame since the one in the car is so low km's and the synchos are good. Should I try changing the output bearings and maybe the diff. I can do that from under the car instead of dropping the motor again. Any thoughts on what the problem is or experience with this before ? Sorry for the long winded post

[Johnboy]

Hi Ricky

Can't help with the repair. But if you've got a spare box , put that in . If the problem goes away . Happy days then fix your main box at your Leisure
But it could be your cv joints , best way to test them is usually on full lock do they nock or click?

[ricky ricardo]

There's no clicking from the side of the car even at full steering lock. The noise definitely comes from the trans tunnel area, a constant whirling sound. If I could change something from under the car it would be easier I just had the motor & trans out..

[bert308]

The rattling noise from the gearbox when idling in neutral without pressing the clutch pedal is quite normal, it is described in tests when the cars were new! It is the for and aft motion of the gearbox input shaft and it disappears when the clutch is engaged. You can replicate the sound on a spare gearbox by rocking the input shaft forward and rearward. Nothing to worry about if it is this.

[ricky ricardo]

Yes I know what you mean but it's far to bad while driving. It's worst at lower speeds and I think it's worse than when I first started driving it.

[AlfaCorseChris]

1 - Can you hear this sound while the car is NOT moving and by pressing the clutch it goes away ?

2 - while driving in say...2nd gear... if you press the clutch and keep it pressed with gear in and let it roll free like that for 10 seconds, does it stop ?

3 - while driving again in 2nd gear, if you press the clutch and keep it pressed but shifting it in neutral and let it roll free (with the clutch still pressed) does it stop ?

4 - Does the sound increase during acceleration ?

[ricky ricardo]

1 - Can you hear this sound while the car is NOT moving and by pressing the clutch it goes away ?

2 - while driving in say...2nd gear... if you press the clutch and keep it pressed with gear in and let it roll free like that for 10 seconds, does it stop ?

3 - while driving again in 2nd gear, if you press the clutch and keep it pressed but shifting it in neutral and let it roll free (with the clutch still pressed) does it stop ?

4 - Does the sound increase during acceleration ?

1- No noise with the clutch depressed.
2- Yes the noise stops when the clutch pedal is depress and the car rolling with the gear lever left in gear.
3- Yes same as above but with the gear lever in neutral.
4- I would say the noise is constant and very noticeable but more noticeable at lower speeds.

All of the above to me says thrust bearing but that and the clutch are new and didn't make and difference ?

I didn't look at it today (to busy) and 8.00pm as I post but will take the sump off the donor trans tomorrow and compair both trans with each other.

If I'm going to drop the engine out again I need to put the sump and oil back in to move it off the ramps but I'll change the opposite drive shaft and hub while I'm at it and drive it again.

[AlfaCorseChris]

All these checks lead me to one conclusion :

Clutch bearing

If you only changed the clutch, the bearing is most probably whats causing the problem
If you changed the bearing as well, maybe you got a faulty one and you replaced the old worn one with a new faulty one.
Sounds like a long shot, but its happened before

Finally, it could also be your fork selector ! if it rubs on the pinion of the gearbox, thats causing you the sound. but you can check that with a screwdriver, if you move it left and right while engine is running

[KevJTD]

if the clutch release bearing was at fault you'd get noise when the clutch was pressed, which is when the bearing would be caused to turn.
when your foot is off the clutch it makes the internals inside the gearbox rotate, and the clutch release bearing is pulled away from the clutch cover and stops rotating.

the clattering/chattering is fairly normal on sud/sprint gearboxes

[ricky ricardo]

Well I'm not a happy chappy today, just spent the day laying under my car taking out the diff, output shafts and bearings. I found a bad bearing on the same side as the drive shaft and CV's I replaced, coincidence ? Also the pin in the centre of the diff was scored at one end. Replaced both parts from my donor gearbox that were good despite it's higher mileage 112,000km's.
I refilled with the oil I took out, it's had time to settle and my hart sank at the last bit finding lots of very fine "very fine" metal shavings. Taking the car for a test drive it's exactly the same as before

I've attached a 35 second video at lowest resolution there's no picture just sound, take a look and feel my pain. It cant be this bad the same before and after a new clutch and bearing. So I'm resigned to changing the whole box now when I should be out enjoying the car.

The first part I'm holding the mic under the car idling then inside the car driving in second gear rocking it on the accelerator. It's not good.

Link> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WIfJroVFlQ

[Spacenut]

Sorry to hear that Ricky. I've had my fair share of gearbox problems in the past, I feel your pain

Replacement seems to be your best option. Hope you are back on the road soon.

Lauren

[ricky ricardo]

^ I think I recall reading about your gearbox problems elsewhere, the worst thing is having to repeatedly remove the the motor and box but it must be done no stopping at the last hurdle.

The donor box is cleaned up with new seals, just need to remove the motor and box in the car now.

[AlfaCorseChris]

Sorry to hear that mate, but even if there was a bad bearing and some wear on the pins of the diff, I wouldnt expect it to cure your problem, as your issue is there with the car just idling !
That means that you have a problem BEFORE the diff starts to roll, before the bearings start to roll and before any gears engage.

While you were under there working on the diff, did you check the fork selectors ?
I've had an issue before when a fork selector went off position and it was rubbing on the gear drives.
It would be visible from under the car, but you would need to check it closer.

Here's a thought... since you are taking this box out anyway, why not do the following so you will know what on earth is wrong with it:

Remove your gear oil and the oil pan while the box is still in the car
Remove the front axles and the diff
And start the car !

I promise you the noise will still be there

Then you can inspect the gearbox guts and determine where that sound is coming from - if you can be bothered.
Think of it as a challenge !

However, I still think its either a clutch bearing or the clutch plate fork. Sounds too metallic and high note to be anything else

[ricky ricardo]

Thanks chris your response got me investigating more today but since I now know the diff is OK and I believe two clutches and bearings cant sound the same and also there was fine gold coloured metal coming out in the oil I crawled under the car while it's running against my survival instincts.

It would have saved me a lot of work if I got under there earlier. I knew 100% the noise was at the very rear of the gearbox and there's no noise from the clutch end then I removed the motor and box.
I thought maybe I somehow reinstalled the gear selector shaft wrong but when I took the rear plate off it all looked good comparing it to the donor box.


Looking at the gear cluster and comparing things with the donor box I found a ring in the gears (red arrow) that had excessive free play and I don't know what to call the part (green arrow) but rocking it back and forward could not connect or locate it's self properly with the ring moving about unlike the donor box that has no such problems. Also I didn't touch these parts changing the gear selector shaft.


I think that's the problem, everything else seems OK. Who knows why a 60,000km box would have these troubles. Diff output shaft bearing scored pin in center of diff, worn CV's on the same side and the ring in the gear cluster.

My 33 has done 235,000km's I put a new clutch and bearing in that and it's totally silent. Accident damaged or just a bad gearbox ? The motor and box will be back in the car tomorrow.

[AlfaCorseChris]

Thats the collar that pushes the synchro in selecting 2nd? gear.

So it wasnt the fork selector itself...

To be honest with you, this is quite odd

What usually happens, is that the fork selector rods either dont return to centre with their spring, or something in the gear lever is holding them out of place, and the fork selectors rub on the collars or gears causing them to wear and fail to engage gears properly.
That would explain the rattling or friction noise

In your case though, it seems that somehow, the collar broke loose from its safety - which can only be done if its pulled extremely hard !

The fork selectors themselves cannot be mounted in any other position on the shafts or adjusted in any way...

So thinking out loud here... the only reasonable cause of this fault I can think of, is extremely aggressive gear change, or somehow the collar got stuck on the selector and in someone's effort to disengage that gear, he pulled it off completely...




Oh well, its a good thing you found what it was
So are you repairing this one and putting it back or are you using the other box ?

[ricky ricardo]

I think if I took out the fork selector now I would find it damaged because of the ring, that ring is very loose.

I'm putting the donor box in, It's a 35 diff ratio didn't count the small gear and the original box has a 39. I found driving it the car it lopes along a 2300rpm at 100kph where my 33 does 2800rpm I don't need a ratio that tall and this motor and box is only in there until I find a 16v crossmember. Ultimately I want this car with a 16v on carbs and a close ratio box.

I have the 16v motor and can buy carb manifolds from Italy. One of my parts cars is the last series 2 sprint, I've read on a aussie forum this model here had the 1.2 5 speed but I cant confirm that till I look, if not I have four 1.2 4 speeds.

Well I didn't get the engine back in today, extra work means extra cleaning to keep it looking good but it's ready to roll under the car tomorrow morning. If this box doesn't work someone will need to call the men in white suits to collect me. ..........

"Oh" and these brakes have fantastic stopping power, I'm very happy with them.

[ricky ricardo]

Does anyone know the ratio's for the Ti 1.2 box ? I just swapped from 11/39 to 9/35 from a 1984 Ti sud, I cant find a lower diff ratio searching the net ?

[Spacenut]

Hi Ricky - there isn't a lower diff ratio than the 4.11:1, but when I bought a Sud Gold Cloverleaf gearbox, thinking I had the hot setup with a 4.11 diff, I found that the overall ratios were lower than my old 1.5 Ti 'box with a 3.889:1 final drive ratio! So it isn't just the diff ratio you need to take into account.

One thing is for certain though - the 1.2 Ti gearbox, either in 4 or 5-speed form, will have the lowest overall ratios of any gearbox. That's why I am using one in the Green Machine!

Lauren

[KevJTD]

Does anyone know the ratio's for the Ti 1.2 box ? I just swapped from 11/39 to 9/35 from a 1984 Ti sud, I cant find a lower diff ratio searching the net ?

here you go

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/gearbox.php

[ricky ricardo]

Thank both for that info. Thumbs up!!

[ricky ricardo]

"Woohoo" she's all fixed now, no noises. Runs sweet as a nut even idling as low as 500rpm and changing through the gears it feels much smoother, I'm a happy chappy now.

[AlfaCorseChris]

Well done mate

[PETROLHEAD]

good to hear, well done

[KevJTD]

result, top marks for persevering

[ricky ricardo]

Thanks all. I did a 70km drive today to my mothers with no issues. I found the different diff ratios a lot lower overall, example at 100kph it now revs at 3200rpm vs 2200 before, I like it better now. The brakes are brilliant there still surprising me, even the hand brake holds the car solid on my mothers drive way that tests any car.

[Spacenut]

Thanks all. I did a 70km drive today to my mothers with no issues. I found the different diff ratios a lot lower overall, example at 100kph it now revs at 3200rpm vs 2200 before, I like it better now. The brakes are brilliant there still surprising me, even the hand brake holds the car solid on my mothers drive way that tests any car.

Result

[KevJTD]

. The brakes are brilliant there still surprising me, even the hand brake holds the car solid on my mothers drive way that tests any car.

now that is amazing!

well done indeed