Classic Alfa Forums

Hi Guys.
I think it’s about time we tackle the “elephant in the room” and have serious discussion about the future of the forum. Mainly funding. It’s becoming obvious that the financial burden on Kev and Shrew is really not fair. Especially in the current economic climate. The main problem appears to be when the site need upgrades of significant maintenance the costs can rise considerably.
Personally I live on this forum and enjoy seeing new builds aswell as the social side of feeling like a true community. I’m also happy to be able to help anyone with help and technical advice when needed. Our forum is truly blessed by having some of the most knowledgable Alfa people in the country. I know Shrew and Kev have always been reluctant to ask for subscriptions etc as that would bring its own problems with formal administration headaches and I understand their reasons for taking that position. That said there must be a way we can all pull together to help even just a few quid a yr would make a massive difference. After all this is our forum it’s only fair that we all help to pay towards its upkeep.
As usual ideas and suggestions welcome
Lou

I would like to help.

But I have no idea how much the forum costs to run and maintain!

Hi Dave. I don’t know the actual numbers. But I understand they’re quite modest at a monthly level and I don’t think we actually need to know the fine details or costs. What I’m trying to start here is a healthy discussion about a future funding model understandably we want to avoid official memberships or subscriptions as that would incur considerable admin systems to be put in place. Whilst Shrew and Kev started the forum I just feel it’s about time we all started to help with the costs. The other thing is has the forum outlasted it usefulness. We seem to go through periods of extreme silence. I’ve tried to keep interest going with my spider resto etc and news of other projects (some non Alfa) but stopped as I got the feeling some members thought I was being a little “look at me”. All I’m saying is a a few quid now and then would make a massive difference when the big maintenance /upgrade bills come.
Lou

I've made a modest donation and hope to be making more of an effort to post more content when I'm better. I suppose a few pounds from a few people will make a great difference

Thank you Craig every bit helps. At the end of the day that all we’re asking for. No one is trying get rich from the forum. The idea is it’s run by Alfisti for Alfisti. I’ve tried to help in the past with funds from the sale of some parts being paid to Shrew. And I’m not out to make anyone feel bad. Basically if you value the forum and the help and advice its members offer then surely it’s worth a few quid now and then.

Hi Loo. I have made donations in the last and I am more than happy to again.
This forum has been fundamental to my love of alfa s and keeping them going.
You have been a fountain of knowledge.
We need Kev and Shrew to share some indicative costs for the forum and what they think is reqd to ensure its financial security
We would then also need an indication from the membership on who would be interested in making an additional commitment
My suggestion would be What about a cooperative? We all put in annually the same amount that's split between the co-op members.
Alternatively a "share" issue on an annual basis? And offered to the membership?

I'm probably talking rubbish but I think what Kev and Shrew have created is worth the costs of protecting and nurturing for the future.

Rsfruitbat

Hi Guys, firstly, thanks Lou for pointing this out to us all on here and it is something we do need to support ,also, don't feel bad about your posts either as they are great to read and know body thinks you are "look at me". It helps keep us all in touch with each other.
I feel bad that I have no things of interest to post at the moment as I have still got things in the pipeline, but just not pushed forward with them.
As Shrew and Kev have pointed out, they are not asking for a huge donation.

A measly £2 a year per member= a Grand...... not a bad contribution for a properly run forum I think.

Thanks for the input guys. Our forum is indeed a most valuable resource.
Of course you’re always going to get some who don’t want to pay and I’m personally not in favour of a formal membership model. As previously mentioned that brings a whole other set of admin problems. We have 550 members but that doesn’t mean we’d get 550 subs. So then you get into having to ban or block peeps and we don’t really want to do that. I think what ever we do it needs to be a bit add hoc so peeps can Chuck a few quid in from time to time without feeling like it’s a requirement.
To put it into context if all members were to donate the price of one Starbucks a month I think would almost cover it.

Other Forums partly fund themselves by allowing advertising on their websites.
I wondered if that had been considered?

Dave. Im sure Adverts have been considered. However I understand that we’d rather not go down that route. I presume a website with constantly changing pop ups would take up more server space and hence may actually increase costs. Also I Personally hate websites that get swamped by pop up adverts every time you open a page. Or the ads take up 50% of the screen. Obviously if an Alfa specialist was to be interested in helping I’m sure a static “sponsored by” banner or some other form of link could be accommodated. But in these challenging Times I wouldn’t hold out much hope. Remember the forum isn’t a business it’s a fun hobby forum run for the benefit of like minded Alfa enthusiasts.

We set up this forum due to the Ads on the Alfa Owner forum where we left because of other issues with a lack of freedom and other problems. They now require a $50 per year subscription to be Ad free, we didn't want that.
As for the question of how much it costs for Shrew and myself to fund the forum that's not really relevant. We've self funded the forum for very near 10 years so work it out how much we've spent, we just asked if anyone values the forum enough to throw a few quid in the pot which a handful did which was very gratefully recieved.
As for having our costs covered that's ot easy to say how much is needed.
For example when there is an issue that needs urgent attention, like when the forum is down unexpectedly then the guy who built the forum needs to drop everything and work on it straight away, which of course gets a bill for works done which has in the past only been done by him working through the night, so imagine what that costs and how you plan to cover the cost other than just accepting and paying it.
All comes with accepting ownership of the forum.
What has become difficult with the donations situation is that it's been a handful of people that have donated which has caused us to feel guilty that the few have been covering for the many.
A fairer situation would be to ask, but not insist, on anyone that feels the forum to have been a benefit to them and enjoyable enough to donate say £10 a year to help cover the costs. Now although there are over 500 members as Lou rightly points out we could never expect all those to pay as the vast majority are no longer active, so if say 50 people did the £10 a year thing then we would be able to cover the monthly site fees and maybe even put a little by for the IT guy, any remainder Shrew and myself would still cover as before.
That's all we ask, if the forum is of value to you guys then help us keep it alive. Do a rough calculation in your head as to what we've put into it financially over the last 10 years and you can see we have tried our best to keep to our promise of a free forum, but times move on and we are just wondering if it's a situation that can, or should carry on.
So it's over to you all I guess, we're not planning on shutting up shop anytime soon, but it would be nice to know if we have the support or if we're coming to the end.

Hi Kev. Thanks you for clarifying the situation. As I mentioned in one of my replies. This forum is not and never was meant to be run as a business but more of a fun and hopefully friendly place for us to share our various Alfa experiences. It’s only seems fair that we all start to carry some of the financial burden.

I certainly appreciate the forum and would be sorry if it were to disappear.
Lou

Id be more than happy to sign up for that Loo.
Kev , would you be prepared to say how many people have donated since your post?

One of the first things would be to contact the membership and make them aware of the situation

Rsfruitbat

I think that’s one for Kev or Shrew. I know that they’re not out to “name or shame” anyone.
I stated this thread as a way of raising awareness of the financial burden Kev and Shrew have shared over the years on our behalf. I’m just hoping that by doing this peeps will feel the forum is worthy of a little ££ support from time to time.

rsfruitbat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:34 pm Id be more than happy to sign up for that Loo.
Kev , would you be prepared to say how many people have donated since your post?

One of the first things would be to contact the membership and make them aware of the situation

Rsfruitbat

The membership will not know if they don't look at the forum. I wonder how many haven't logged on for a month?

Thank you Lou for this post, it is serving the purpose well and has certainly begun a healthy discussion on the topic, one that myself and Kev have not been too comfortable with having with our members for all the reasons mentioned here, so it's great that it's members themselves that have both raised the subject and are throwing in such positive suggestions too, Marvellous!

Thank you also, obviously, to those that have responded in kind and made their donations and assistance, it is very, very much appreciated, and whilst I'd love to shout certain names from the rooftop regarding their generosity, it's probably neither in good taste or productive towards the greater goal, but you know who are, and again thank you very much.

To echo some of the main points being made, the set up costs were initially a little surprising, but myself and Kev felt compelled enough to put our money where our mouth was, and build a better place for all of us that, let's face it, were pissed off at AO and the way we were being treated in the Boxer Lounge in particular.

This site was almost called the Flat4rum but we thought whilst it was catchy it was also a bit cryptic and exclusive, so the catch all classic alfa forum it became.

The monthly costs, escalated rather quickly, as we enjoyed a huge flurry of input from some phenomenal car builds and members input, we soon exhausted our webspace capabilities, but never wanting to put restrictive limits on pictures, file size, or any content that might deter posts and contributions, we just kept increasing our commitment.

Those monthly costs are still pretty modest and reasonable in my opinion, but as mentioned above, it's much of the other incidental costs that we feel the blow of much more.

Since the beginning, we've had to upgrade the Web host program several times, as one format gives way to another and we simply have to shift, move with the times, as the publishers make the old formats redundant and no longer maintain and support them.

We've moved the entire database, three or four times I think now, plus the occasional emergency to deal with service disruption, the odd cyber attack, hack, and even once a financial demand of thousands of pounds or else every members privacy and security will be severely compromised!

I sincerely hope, that all this has been dealt with seamlessly, to you our members, and the forward facing forum website has never changed or experienced any negativity throughout any of these processes and reactions, essentially, you'd never know that these things are happening, or being professionally dealt with.

OK, we've had the odd new member creep by my scrutiny and post a silly picture along with the promise of endless fun, but what Kev does at the weekend is up to him!

Now, whilst we have a brilliant tech support, and I really do mean brilliant, and, remarkable value too, none of it comes for free, and nor could we expect it too, the reality is, these issues need immediately response regardless of cost.

We did also mock up, template for and prepare, for a sister site, the modern alfa forum, but some of the targeted models are approaching classics now already, and for newer models, we feared that the audience could be such that there is no way we could build such a sight funded by ourselves and without subscription, it could be huge, and, worryingly, end up more like what we left in the first place!

"What's your choice of Magic Tree?" Type threads!


Vanilla of course, every time, Black Forest makes me car sick!


But the forum must have a planned for future, or at least we want it to have one, and that's why this discussion is great and a healthy thing to happen, so yet again, thank you for the members, contributors, donator, and Lou!


Carry on.....

Hi Loo, Shrew, Kev
My questions are not aimed at individuals. it would be useful to understand what respond rate has been received from the wider membership. As we spread the net wider and less frequent visitors I think it's unlikely the donation rate or value will increase.
Painful as it may be we need to determine the size of the challenge so we can create a robust solution to ensure the future of the forum without increased burden on the founders.
Rsfruitbat

I agree.

There seems to be a quite limited number of 'regulars' on this forum.

I think it needs to be donations and not membership or ads, the latter adds cost and complexity in their own right.

Somewhere above £10 per annum is mentioned, doesn’t seem a lot

I haven’t donated before, more thru forgetting until it comes up.

£20 per annum, or even a pound a week by recurring transfer from a core gang seems reasonable, or whatever people think or can afford. The part Kev and shrew need is a bit of a commitment to plan against, so maybe we all send uncle Kev or uncle shrew a private message and say what we can afford to offer per annum, and for how long (2 years commit?) and see if that adds up behind the scenes.

That way it can be kept private if folks prefer, and people can offer whatever they see fit or can afford. Times are tough so one size might not fit all and any donation would no doubt be welcome.

Anyhow, just my thoughts.


Lou - I like reading your posts, keep them coming, but I’m often catching them while doing other stuff (work ) so mostly offline hence don’t reply.

One thing I would like to ad which has been a nice reminder, if not a surprise, is that there is still an apetite for the forum.
We did wonder if maybe it had run its course or started to wander down that path but it's nice to hear there is still enthusiasm to continue on, maybe and hopefully with a decent secure future.
I'd also like to thank those that have dipped into their pockets for donations, we don't take it lightly in asking (or feel that comfortable about it truth be told) as we know times are tough for us all, but if the forum shines a bit of light on peoples sometimes dull days then great.
There has been a bit of a dip in projects but that's really to be expected as people dip in and out of ownership and the cars get older, less of them about so if anyone has an interesting project let us know, doesn't have to be an Alfa as some of the past interesting projects included a JCB style digger and a manual water well pump! Anything that's mechanical and old is interesting

But back on topic, we did look into a paid membership one price for all per annum type thing but the cost of administering it would have taken most of what it brought in! It would mean a database of members, reminders sent out, a kind of audit/accountant situation to monitor who had paid and who needed chasing before being blocked out etc etc, unless it's on a bigger scale then the costs of looking after a 100 or so likely maximum paid members would potentially outstrip what was brought in which would make the situation worse in our eyes.

A big thank you to all who have shown faith, finanically and in taking the time to discuss.

KevJTD wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:55 pm One thing I would like to add which has been a nice reminder, if not a surprise, is that there is still an appetite for the forum.
We did wonder if maybe it had run its course or started to wander down that path but it's nice to hear there is still enthusiasm to continue on, maybe and hopefully with a decent secure future.

This has been mentioned before, and all I can say is have a gander at the Alfasud lounge on the AROC forum, if you want to see what a real ghost town looks like

There again, I guess a lot of discussion goes on via Twitface (or should that be Xface now?) and other forms of social media which I make a conscious effort to avoid.

Regarding the topic of funding, I think the model used by the Nova forum works well. This allows voluntary donations through Paypal in a range of fixed annual amounts - £10 through to £50. The member selects the value they feel is appropriate, the payment is made, and 12 months later the member gets an email reminder that the donation period is up. I personally find this reminder very useful as I would otherwise forget to donate at the appropriate time.

I guess it helps that the Nova forum is administered by a computer whiz, but in other respects I imagine the running costs are similar to those of CAF, and achieved with fewer members.

Having the fixed value donations also helps to address the question of how much you should pay I think. If £10 a year seems too little, what about £20? Glossy bi-monthly magazine aside, CAF membership is a more valuable resource to me than AROC membership. Anyway, that's my two penneth, for what its worth