Engine rebuild help - opinions needed!

[mj2k]

Since there are probably many people more experienced than me at engine rebuilding (I normally just drop in a replacement short or new engine) I thought maybe someone could offer some opinions on this?

It's a 3.0 12v Busso which has been standing for many, many years, generally it doesn't look very worn at all, but I'm a bit worried about the state of the wet liners, esp as they're virtually irreplaceable now...

What do you (collectively) reckon - rescue-able or have I got a nice pile of parts for another Busso?


Cylinder heads look virtually new except for the corrosion in the waterways




Crankshaft looks pretty good too, may not need any attention whatsoever





Well, assuming this is a normal cutout for cylinder 1 that is:




Bearings are very good too (as were the pistons, not pictured):






Oil seals were, er not so good




Look at this build-up of grot between the pistons! (I'm hoping a jetwash and good scrub with a toothbrush will get rid of this)






And now for the bit which concerns me more - corrosion in the bores. Hopefully honing will get rid of most of it:














But there are two things which worry me

There's a chunk missing out of the bottom of one of the wet liners. I get the nasty feeling I might have knocked this off when turning the engine over for the first time in years - it looks new.


Much more serious corrosion in one of the bores - feels like an 80s Fiat wheelarch when you run your fingers across it!

[junior]

Personally i would go and see Keith Waite at K and L auto's as he did my Sud engine very well despite not having done one for years and us having a right mix of bits.

Also I think he races one of your engines. K and L auto's 020 8458 3878.

He is a one man band in a small workshop, but was genuinely interested in getting it right and all his advice was excellent.

Another chap who had good service from him here, put me on to him.

[mj2k]

Thanks

My plan is to rebuild it myself though, no matter how long it takes (in theory), and rebuilding a Busso (or at least tearing one to bits) was very much on my oily-fingered bucket list

As yet there's no car for it to go into and it wasn't hugely expensive so even if it is junk I won't have lost much as long as I've got a few useful parts out of it, but it'd be good to try and rescue it if I can.

[LooLooSud33Spider]

Hi Marc
Send John at Justsuds a PM . He has a car that may just suit your needs .
Tell him Lou sent you.

[mj2k]

Hi Marc
Send John at Justsuds a PM . He has a car that may just suit your needs .
Tell him Lou sent you.

Great, thanks Lou

Is he @justsuds on here?

[Johnboy]

Yes same guy

[junior]

Thanks

My plan is to rebuild it myself though, no matter how long it takes (in theory), and rebuilding a Busso (or at least tearing one to bits) was very much on my oily-fingered bucket list

As yet there's no car for it to go into and it wasn't hugely expensive so even if it is junk I won't have lost much as long as I've got a few useful parts out of it, but it'd be good to try and rescue it if I can.

Yes, I understand that, but in the past I have paid people for their advice and it has worked well.

I have paid for exact amounts of time or even just given a good big cake, but ended up with access to a vast amount of knowledge and the best contacts that have taken

a person years to build up. Yet you can still do it yourself.

[justsuds]

Hi Marc, - thanks, - and thanks to Lou too, got your message, reply sent.
Cheers, John.

[mj2k]

My plan is to rebuild it myself though, no matter how long it takes (in theory)

Yes, I understand that, but in the past I have paid people for their advice and it has worked well.

I have paid for exact amounts of time or even just given a good big cake, but ended up with access to a vast amount of knowledge and the best contacts that have taken

a person years to build up. Yet you can still do it yourself.

Last night by some bizarre twist of fate I managed to pick up a set of 3.0 12v liners off Ebay for £65 last night, so assuming some of them are in decent condition I could pull the liners from the block (I was scared to do that in case of causing more damage) and send all 12 liners in to see if a set of 6 good ones can be made...

And since I can't find my gauges to accurately measure them all and really don't fancy the idea of trying DIY honing (saw some pics on the internet of a ham-fisted DIY job which put me right off the idea) I think your idea could be the basis of a plan

[mj2k]

Hi Marc, - thanks, - and thanks to Lou too, got your message, reply sent.
Cheers, John.

Thanks John, replied and texted

[mj2k]

Ugh, this is much slower going than I expected - despite using a pretty strong puller made out of a Mercedes W124 spring compressor (the sort with a cast plate on the top, strong enough to deal with springs hewn from granite) and a rather sturdy exhaust manifold flange ground to size, I've still managed to crack a good liner removing it, and three are stuck so fast they've actually bent the 12mm thick manifold flange!

And annoyingly three of the liners I bought from Ebay are no good (one is heavily chipped, two others are visibly distorted from removal) so I've got to try and pull at least two of the remaining liners in one piece, otherwise it's 'game over' for the engine 'til I can find some good 24v liners at a reasonable price (very little chance of getting more unworn 12v ones, so worth a gamble on the later type from a 166 or 916 gtv). So I'm attempting to edge the other liners out (hopefully) a couple of bolt turns at a time, grimacing at every little cracking sound I hear and backing it off to check for damage. It's taken two days for one liner so far, and counting.

Other option would be I smack them out with a lump hammer and cold chisel, which would be much quicker and very satisfying but wouldn't do much for engine longevity

[mj2k]

I almost ended up smacking out the liners with a chisel...

After another set of tools bent (including one cut from an even thicker manifold from a turbo downpipe!) I ended up creating one more from another exhaust flange, clamping it in place and then smacking them out with a lump hammer

Not worth me spending money on the proper tool - if I can ever find some a new set of liners would cost less than a proper liner removal tool, so I figured it wasn't worth the bother of trying to save them, but managed to get 2 out of the 3 remaining liners out in one piece with minimal damage to the lips using the lump hammer.

Engine innards cleaned up OK with a good, powerful jetwash and water will flow freely through the waterways now, so I figure the block at least is one good flush away from being fine.

Next stage will be to check if the remaining 'new' liners are any good or if they're too worn to reuse, and if they're OK give them a quick glazebust and drop them in place. Next I'll give the crankshaft journals a quick manual polish (they look fine), and then check them and the pistons for wear, and that clearance is OK in the replacement liners.

Not too sure how to check the conrods for twist without using 'proper' tools so I guess next best will be to put them on a mirror and check as best I can with a dial gauge and feeler gauges; not worth spending silly money on any of this - I've given myself a budget of £300 to rebuild it (unless I find some new liners) and if it looks like I'm going to exceed that I'll just save the good bits, bin the rest and wait for another better 12v (or early 24v) engine to come up.

[mj2k]

Finally finished cleaning the block:



Looking good, except for these two rather worrying areas of what I can only describe as cavitation on the centre cylinder in both banks. Does this mean the block is scrap?

[LooLooSud33Spider]

To be honest Marc I’ve seen a hell of a lot worse. The main thing is the seats where the liners sit seem to be in good condition. If they get pitted it can stop the seal rings on the bottom of the liners sealing properly with inevitable consequences.

[mj2k]

Thanks Lou, that's reassuring, I came close to checking how much it'd be worth if I weighed it in for scrap Guess I'll just have to be careful to use good quality coolant when it's back together so the cavitation doesn't get any worse.

Having said that, it's not worth spending silly money on this engine given it's overall condition, but seems like it's worth me carrying on with a 'shoestring overhaul'...

I'm still waiting for a bore gauge to turn up from the 'Bay so I can check the liners fully, but by using an old piston ring, feeler gauges and one of the original pistons I've found out the new liners (luckily) are the same grade as the old ones, piston -> wall clearance is under .05mm and there's little taper in the bores, so I should be good to go. And to maintain the 'shoestring' theme I'll be glazebusting the liners myself, which could be, er, interesting, but luckily I've got 5 scrap liners to practice on before I wreck the 'ok' ones.

[KevJTD]

Very interesting thread this one, never taken a busso apart myself so loving seeing the insides without having to do the hard work

[mj2k]

Thanks, same here, I always wanted to know what the inside of a Busso was like, and in some ways I was quite lucky with this engine - it was cheap enough for me not to be too concerned if things do go drastically wrong, but rare enough for it to be worth saving rather than weighing in for scrap. And since it's a 12v rather than a pernickety 3.2 24v I even stand a reasonable chance of getting a running engine at the end of it

Edit: got my deglazing tool today, which looked suspiciously like a DIY honing tool, with the 3 springloaded prongs and abrasive pads on the end. Not ideal but after a little playing with dud liners I managed to get a reasonable finish, not quite the proper 45 degree cross hatch but a good 30-40 degree one which should be adequate for bedding in as long as I'm careful

However deglazng the liners revealed some issues which were hidden by the glaze / surface rust - 4 out of 6 okish liners have scratches near the top of the bore, all but one have slight signs of uneven wear at the bottom, and some of the original ones from the engine are so badly pitted underneath the surface rust they would have probably broken the rings if I'd actually tried to start the engine.

[mj2k]

Wahey, I bought this wheelbarrow-full of random Busso bits off Ebay:





If nothing else it contains an original 164 oil pump and pickup, so I should be able to make a good 75 and 164 oil pump out of the bits I've already got, a 164 plenum / sensors which might give me a few more options when the rebuild's finished and most importantly it contains the replacement crankshaft pulley which I've been looking for

I'm picking it up tomorrow, would be good if one of the pistons / liners in there was in decent condition too, but that'd be an unexpected bonus if a pair was useable. BTW anyone care to hazard a guess what that random flat-top piston in the 2nd pic is from? It's plainly not from a 3.0 Busso, but more than that I don't know...

[mj2k]

Blimey, if @LooLooSud33Spider is correct (which is highly likely), that wheelbarrow full of parts came from Tony Soper's Alfa 164!



Better make good use of them

[mj2k]

Thanks to that wheelbarrow full of parts I bought I now have 18 cylinder liners, 12 pistons (4 have gone in the bin), 14 gudgeon pins and 15 on rods to make a choice from

None of the choices are easy - all but two of the original cylinder liners are junk so they'll be going straight in the bin. The set I bought separately off Ebay all have small chips out of the bases and 2 are scrap, so I've got 4 useable ones there. But they're 'c spec' so won't match my 'b spec' pistons. And then I have 2 nice separate liners from the wheelbarrrow, but they've got a fair bit of surface corrosion and no discernible markings to say what spec they are, plus a full set of 'b spec' liners which also came from the wheelbarrow, with no chips. I'd be choosing the final full set of liners, but for one thing - they're all scored so may have suffered from a partial seize during a race (assuming they came from the yellow 164!).

Pistons would be a no brainer (use the originals) except for one minor issue - one of the piston crowns was so badly corroded it's got a 2mm deep indentation in it, and the other set of pistons (from the wheelbarrow) seem good, but once again have scratches near the bottom of the skirt and slightly worn gudgeon pins.

And as for the conrods - 2 of them don't have matching big end caps, 6 of them have visible wear in the little end, and 2 of them have corrosion (guess where they came from) so bad the gudgeon pin no longer moves freely.

So I'm going to be spending some unexpected quality time with my micrometers and a nice, new bore gauge I'm waiting for from Ebay before I assemble anything, to try and get the best set of parts I can before sticking it back together. I'd consider saving up to get all new pistons, conrods and liners if this was a 24v 164 engine, but I'm going to resist the temptation for this crusty 12v block.

BTW here's an interesting tip for cheapskates like me - if you're doing the glazebusting yourself stick the glaze buster in a nice, old fashioned hand drill. It's much easier to get the necessary 45 degree cross hatch when the drill speed and depth is totally under your control, and moving slowly enough for you to see exactly what it's doing.

Update - I'm not getting that Alfetta shell after all, it's apparently been scrapped. So back to square one with that

[Veesix75]

Well, luckily for me I have the lightly breathed on and ported heads from one of tony’s 12v busso racers, but they are staying.

I also have a twin turbo bits for a 12v busso, turbos, jackets, manifolds and downpipes, used but all seems ok, I doubt I’ll be brave enough to use them if anyone ‘else’ is braver than I am

[Sud 145]

There's a pair of brand new pistons and liners on Ebay at a price - know you're on a budget tho'

[mj2k]

Well, luckily for me I have the lightly breathed on and ported heads from one of tony’s 12v busso racers, but they are staying.

I also have a twin turbo bits for a 12v busso, turbos, jackets, manifolds and downpipes, used but all seems ok, I doubt I’ll be brave enough to use them if anyone ‘else’ is braver than I am

Now, that'd be an interesting project, according to some other posts I've found over time 3.0 pistons / conrods / liners with a 2.5 crank will give a 2.8 engine with a nice low 7.5:1 compression ratio, ideal for turbos

I suspect this mixture of block / pistons probably wouldn't last terribly well even with moderate boost and the extra revviness of the shorter stroke would suit a 24v better, but that could make one helluva interesting project...

Hmmm, twin turbos you say? My old Subaru legacy 2.0 quad cam (sequential) twinturbo could push out 300 bhp from 2.0 litres with the turbos kicking in at 3000 rpm and boosting to around 1.2 bar, so in theory a 2.8 twinturbo 24v could develop around 400-420 bhp, and if small turbos were used it could kick in at almost supercharger rpm. Are you still sure you don't want to try it?

If not, er, was it designed for the v6 mounted inline or transversely? A 116 Giulietta with 400+ bhp could be an interesting prospect. Hmmm... How much did you want for it?

[mj2k]

There's a pair of brand new pistons and liners on Ebay at a price - know you're on a budget tho'

I had a look at those - a bit overpriced IMO. They've been standing for a while so have surface rust (will definitely need glazebusting, maybe more serious honing), seller only has 3 but at that price a full set of 6 would be £900, at which point you might as well spend an extra £300 or so and get forged pistons instead to allow for future expansion (Edit - Wossner k9144 forged kit can be found for £800!)

In other news, I got my new rings / main bearings today and got the liner seals yesterday, just have to wait for the proper bore gauge so I can make an informed choice on which liners to use and measure / weigh the conrods to make sure I don't accidentally build in an engine imbalance, and I can start putting it back together a bit.

[Veesix75]

Here’s what I have , if interested drop me a line, it’s not expensive. It’s in line, one per bank.

[mj2k]

Here’s what I have , if interested drop me a line, it’s not expensive. It’s in line, one per bank.

Pm'd, that'll definitely be interesting for extending my pipe-dream project a bit further

[mj2k]

Managed to assemble a good set (I hope!) of pistons, conrods and liners, half way through cleaning them up and then I can at least refit the pistons / liners.

Couple of quick 'noob' questions before I do that though:
1) on the old pistons the gudgeon pin rotated freely (on the non-corroded ones) as the conrod was moved, on the replacement ones the gudgeon pin doesn't move at all. Which way is correct when cold?
2) There is a 20g weight difference between a pair of assembled pistons / conrods on opposite sides of the engine, pistons weigh about the same so it must be something to do with conrod balance weights. Should I try and find a pair which match in weight better, or leave well alone?

[mj2k]

Weight matching done - by swapping one super-heavy rod and some judicious fiddling about with gudgeon pins / rods I've managed to get the weights as below, which should be good enough for a road engine:

1219 1218
1219 1222
1225 1225

I checked by heating them in the oven and the gudgeon pins move fine when they're a few degrees hotter so no need to worry about that, and they don't look too bad either:



So I can start to stick stuff back together

[mj2k]

I've just been very naughty, assuming they're shipped with no problems I have a set of these on order from a tuning shop in Italy, £620 plus shipping so couldn't resist

https://www.tjmotorsport.co.uk/proddeta ... prod=K9144

[KevJTD]

****it's a budget build*****



soon changes when shiny bits become tempting

cracking thread still