Quick question I think I already know the answer to

[mj2k]

I've recently acquired a 3.0 12v Busso for use in a future project, which has been partially converted from the transverse type used in the 164, to the inline type used in the 75, etc. Apparently it hasn't been run for years (the distributor wouldn't engage properly, for reasons which will become clear) but it came from a low mileage 164, so hopefully shouldn't take too much recommissioning.

I decided to drop the sump off the engine last night, more out of boredom / curiosity than anything else, but I'm glad I did. Whilst taking the oil pump off (a nightmare 1 hour process involving 5 different length Allen keys (all of the same size) I noticed the oil pump was a hybrid of a 116 inline and a 164's transverse oil pump, and had a big open hole on the side of the pump body where the 164's pickup should fit. Which kindof explains why it was so tricky to remove - that mixture of components wasn't designed to fit together in the first place! And that also explains why the distributor drive wouldn't engage - there's an extra nut on the top of the 164's pump driveshaft which gets in the way of the drive dog for the 116-style front mounted distributor.

I'm assuming the norm is to replace the entire oil pump when converting a 164's transverse Busso to inline, I'm pretty much resigned to having to fork out £££ for a replacement oil pump and I'm pretty sure the existing pump won't work terribly well with a big hole in the housing, but before I assault my bank account, has anyone had any success using a 164 pump with 75/GTV pickup and a blanking plate over the normal 164's oil pickup hole? I figure it'd be way too risky to try if nobody's successfully used a 164 pump before in a transaxle v6, so I don't fancy pioneering that idea myself

[mj2k]

Just in case anyone's wondering what I'm babbling on about, this is the hybrid pump:



I reckon oil would have either come up the pickup, gone straight out the hole and not touched the engine, or it would have drawn in air through the hole rather than oil. Either way I don't think this would have done the engine much good if it had been run like this, so I'm going to strip it down to check for damage, and decide it's fate from there.

Let me know if I've posted this in the wrong place (or if it's not likely to be of interest to anyone) and I'll shut up

[KevJTD]

so that 2 bolt flange on the side was just open? It'd just suck air there and pump no oil, guess a blanking plate would solve the issue?

Never taken a V6 Busso apart myself so can't shed any light onto what it should look like but very intriguing

Keep us posted

[mj2k]

Will do

I did a bit more dismantling this evening, got to say the 12v is one helluva lot better designed than the 3.2 24v in the 156 GTA - it literally flew apart!

Think I might be needing a new water pump:


Cam covers off:


Heads off:


So far it doesn't look too bad except the waterways and the valley between the cylinder banks are full of what I can only describe as "Ewww"! I think some insect or another must have been nesting in there, so next stage will be to drop the pistons / liners out and give the block a damned good internal jetwash

Edit: yes, the flange was just open, on the 164 pump that's where the oil pickup would bolt, and it has a totally different cover on the bottom (with no pickup). I was thinking about doing that, but because the oil flow into the pump is so different I get the nasty feeling the oil pressure wouldn't be too clever if I just blanked the flange off.

[Sud 145]

I seem to remember the inside of Kev's Lancia waterpump looked a little like that.

[mj2k]

I seem to remember the inside of Kev's Lancia waterpump looked a little like that.

Bet it didn't have the desiccated, moldy remains of a field mouse jammed underneath the inlet manifolds though

[KevJTD]

I seem to remember the inside of Kev's Lancia waterpump looked a little like that.

Bet it didn't have the desiccated, moldy remains of a field mouse jammed underneath the inlet manifolds though

LOL, no I didn't find any rodents

[LooLooSud33Spider]

I’ve got a NOS V6 water pump I don’t need

[mj2k]

I’ve got a NOS V6 water pump I don’t need

Yes please!!!

Don't suppose you've got an old Alfetta / 75 Busso oil pump (any condition will do, or just the housing) knocking around as well by any chance?

[LooLooSud33Spider]

Hi Marc .
Sorry I haven’t got any pump bits. I Do have some exh manifolds which i think are 75 V6 . Have a look at the pic see if they’re any use to you.

Lou

[mj2k]

Hi Marc .
Sorry I haven’t got any pump bits. I Do have some exh manifolds which i think are 75 V6 . Have a look at the pic see if they’re any use to you.

Lou

78EEB6AD-DD9B-40C0-AD03-7C4307E8CEEC.jpeg

Oh well, it was worth a try Think I've managed to source a replacement oil pump anyway from a 116 gtv, though I won't have any idea how worn it is 'til I get it and strip it down.

I've already got some manifolds the same as that (which I'm hoping are 75 v6 items too) so I'm fine for them thanks. But in the unlikely event you've got the casting which bolts between the thermostat housing and the pump (basically the lower half of the thermostat housing by the looks of it) I'll definitely grab that off you - despite searching for months I still haven't found one yet.

[mj2k]

Right, 2nd hand oil pump and new cambelt on order, need to source a lot of gaskets and some new piston rings at the very least now...

Cambelt tensioner rebuild kit arrived from @LooLooSud33Spider this morning (thanks for that) so I've got the potential to make some real movement on the engine, except for one small thing. The crankshaft pulley nut is well and truly rusted in place - a 6 foot breaker bar won't shift it (though it does a nice job of trying to turn the whole engine plus pallet it's strapped to over), and neither does an impact wrench. And it needs to come off because I can see the oil seal has had it (bits are hanging out into the sump) so I guess my best bet is to drill / split the nut, though I might just hand the whole 'change oil seal' job over to a local garage and let them deal with it

Silly question, but has anyone tried removing the crankshaft with the pulley / oil seal still in place, or would that be a stupid idea? Guess it's not strictly necessary to pull the crankshaft to check the condition of the bearings anyway so I might just leave it be for the moment.

[mj2k]

Carried on with the crankshaft pulley nut by attempting to split it. Drilled a small hole to see if that helped to relieve the pressure. Nothing. Drilled a second hole near the circumference, enlarged both and joined them together with a small chisel. Still nothing. Hammered in a larger chisel until I could see a crack running through the nut. Still nothing. Drilled the holes bigger until they went into the washer behind just in case I hadn't gone all the way through. Still nothing. Hammered in a cold chisel which made a gap so large you can stick your finger into it. Still nothing

This must be the toughest nut in existence!

Edit: got the beggar off at last so I can start dismantling in earnest. Or at least I can once I've pulled the pulley itself - that seems to be rusted on too.

[Kegsti66]

Sounds like she is fighting you all the way mate.
Well done getting the nut off.

[mj2k]

Sounds like she is fighting you all the way mate.
Well done getting the nut off.

Thanks

Yep, it is fighting hard, but nowhere near as hard as the 156 GTA did - the silly mixture of alloy / steel bits in the front suspension with nothing to separate them meant almost everything was seized in place by electrolytic corrosion. It took me 3 weeks to change the front suspension bushes, about the same length of time it took me to reshell a Subaru!

Unfortunately there was another casualty apart from the crankshaft nut / washer - when I finally managed to extract the pulley I discovered it had a lot of radial cracks running out from the centre, so that's ready for the bin too. Not sure if that was to do with the corrosion, the heavy duty puller I had to use to extract it, the repeated use of the impact wrench or if they were pre-existing but it doesn't matter anyway - whilst searching for a replacement I found it was a 164 pulley so wouldn't be any good anyway - motronic pulley with l-jetronic ecu, and not matched to the flywheel.

And whilst I was researching replacements I found out the flywheel's off an early 2.5 GTV so won't fit without a 4mm spacer, and will be out of balance anyway. So if I'd somehow got it going with that combination of flywheel and pulley it'd have been so massively out of balance the whole car would have shaken like a 1960s Ford Corsair!

So, I'm now on the search for a 75 2.5 / 3.0 flywheel and pulley set, which might be a bit tricky to find...

Anyone got a spare set knocking about in their garage anywhere? Please?