Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

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Lightfoot
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Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Lightfoot »

Hello Everyone,

Hope you are all well and enjoying a 'fruitfully-Alfa summer' midst all this gorgeous weather (can this really be England?).

Apologies big time for the long absence from the forum. I see there haven't been any 164 postings since my last one so presumably I'm flying the 164 flag alone these days? I keep hearing that there are only around 6-7 Cloverleafs currently on the road (no idea how many are on SORN) but surely that can't be right?

Anyway, the absence was due to a very prolonged and involved conversion on my late mother's 1985 Opel Monza GSE from Bosch LE-Jetronic to Bosch Motronic fuel injection and although I know it's possibly tantamount to treason mentioning something Teutonic on this site (the car's affectionately known as the E-Boot, by the way) BUT at least it was named after an Italian racetrack (ok, the only defence I could come up with at short notice...).

Anyhoo...seeing as my 164 'Leaf has always (certainly for the last few years anyway) been undergoing what's jocularly known as a rolling restoration, I've been resigned to the occasional 'big, bad bill' every once in a while but Christ do they keep coming! Although she looks a whole lot better now after last year's makeover we always have to subscribe to the view that classic cars remain forever 'works in progress'.

MOT time Sept '17 threw up two areas which have turned into sagas with 'momentum'!

Firstly, more rust in the chassis! I suppose that me whingeing about the fact that these cars were galvanized from new won't cut any ice today, twenty-five years on! Presumably even galvanization has its own shelf life. Actually, it wasn't too bad - just some more attention to the N/S/F jacking point.

Secondly, shock absorbers!

God, the 164 Cloverleaf is a complicated car! Not only are they two-position electronic dampers (reasonably cutting edge at the start of the '90's, I suppose) but they are are also 'handed' left and right. Not only that but the fronts differ from the rears in that the spring mounting plates are separate to the dampers at the front BUT form an integral part of the rear dampers!

So, WERE you to need to replace the spring mounting plate on a REAR damper you're faced with cutting/grinding the old plate off and then welding a new one on in its place - welding a gas-filled damper? Not something I'd want to do! Now have a look at the attached photo of the O/S/R damper to see what I'm waffling on about. Pretty, isn't it.

Eight months later and it's the five-yearly cambelt change (I tell you, five years seems to come around in half the time these days) and up pop two more accompanying problems - surprise, surprise, rust in the rear wheelarches and a leaking shock absorber (this time the other rear).

Fortunately, a 'new old stock' rear damper was procured from Italy (thank you to Alfa Aid in Maidenhead for that) and, six weeks later (the Italian postman took ages) I've been reacquainted with She Who Must Be Obeyed (one day I'm going to learn how to write that in Italian).

Did I say the 164 Cloverleaf was complicated? Tell you what - if you ever glimpse one when it's up on a four-poster just take a peek at the underside. What IS going on under there?!! Looks like no car I've ever seen.

I would hazard a guess and say it's probably on a par with the late 1990's Maserati Quattroporte 1V in that respect. Other than one being RWD while the other is FWD I'd say there's not a great deal in it. Actually, if there's one machine that could really tempt me away from the 'Leaf it would be a late 3.2 Evo Quattroporte. In fact, there is one such car (and a super-rare six-speed manual to boot) in the classifieds as I write this BUT - however tempted I might be I feel the rolling restoration costs of one of those would makes my Alfa bills pale into insignificance by comparison!

Now to bring myself up to date with some of what the other members have been getting up to.

Cheers,
Lightfoot
PS. In one photo the 'Leaf is in front of a pub - yes, sometimes one is driven to take refuge in alcohol. In another the car is pictured in front of a church - yes, correct again, it's often all a question of faith and prayer!
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KevJTD
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by KevJTD »

I used to like the Monza, guy used to Rally one when we were at it, great thing to fling around!
Can't remember his name now, Martin something I think....he went on to use a Carlton 3000GSi (that WAS a handful) then he put an M3 engine in a compact....all good fun!

The 164 is a complicated old girl, 80's electronics being in their infancy some things were a bit hit and miss..

The 164 Q4 that John had, now that was a strange beast!

At least you're getting some use while the sun shines though!
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alfettagtam
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by alfettagtam »

So, 24V leaf?

I have a white 12V leaf (in need of that rolling restoration of which you speak - but first to get it rolling!)

Have you heard of re-gassing the leaf's electronic struts? I'm planning on doing this for mine.

Cheers
Kerry
(Christchurch, NZ)

Kegsti66
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Kegsti66 »

Keep flying that flag , she looks great, pub or church. :D
Our Alfas put us through the hoop sometimes, but drive it, park it and take a look back at it as you walk away and you know why.

Love the Monza as well. Like Kev, I remember a guy rallying one. I seem to remember him smashing the hatch in an off and they would not let him continue until it was replaced, so a fan/spectator offered to lend him the one off his own car.

Veesix75
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Veesix75 »

Stockdale.....I think he now has a rally bmw with a jag v6 in it.

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KevJTD
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by KevJTD »

Martin Stockdale, that's the fella Tim ;)
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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KevJTD
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by KevJTD »

Sorry to continue hijacking your thread...but it is Opel related...

Just enjoy the RWD lack of traction control action, these guys are Gods, you can keep your F1 thanks very much.
The "dear god" stage....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asluw_EdLrc
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Veesix75
Posts: 1697
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:37 pm

Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Veesix75 »

Double hijack.....almost an Opel, stay tuned for the in car vid pointing at the drivers face....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOq94g2HB0


Plus, I like the Monza, great colour

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KevJTD
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by KevJTD »

Legend.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Lightfoot
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Lightfoot »

Hi Kerry,

Yes, they're rare in white, it seems! Good luck with the restoration. Regarding the Boge electronic dampers I came across Alfa Service (in Germany) after reading a post (on alfaowner, I think) by an American 164 Cloverleaf owner who sent all four of his dampers across the Atlantic to them for a comprehensive refurbishment. That's indicative of how far one has to go sometimes! He seemed pleased with the result but no idea of the overall cost.

I've included the link to Alfa Service below - seems they're 'connected' with other companies they know who can re-build, re-manufacture parts for classic Alfas etc.

https://www.alfa-service.com/modx/index.php?id=61

Also attached is a pdf I found on the web describing those Boge shocks in detail - which might be of help to you if you think you can locate a specialist in NZ who refurbishes shocks. See below:

http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technica ... 20Alfa.pdf

Hope this helps.

One other point which may be useful to know (if you don't already) is the scarcity of front and rear subframes. Over here in the UK (due to the climate) plenty of 164's ended up scrapped due to having rusty subframes - particularly the rear subframe which tends to just refuse to be budged without suffering damage when attempts are made to remove it, partly because it's pretty small and a bit delicate in the first place. Like many 164 parts they're desperately difficult to source (new or old stock) so my advice is to start dosing the mountings with Plus Gas or WD40 or whatever WELL in advance of trying to remove it.

Having said that, seeing as you live in a dry climate, you might well not have this problem in the first place. The front subframes can also deteriorate but I believe they're not so difficult to remove - plus being under the engine there's usually a fine mist of oil swirling around under there which helps 'lubricate' everything!

Cheers,
Jeremy

Lightfoot
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Lightfoot »

Thanks for the appreciative comments on the Opel Monza (another rare one these days).

I recall a red one campaigned, for several years actually, by a driver called Gavin Cox - particularly remember seeing him on the Lombard RAC Rallies in the early '90's. It seemed a big car to be throwing along forest stages in those days but Gavin knew the car very well and made a spectacular job of it. Not as noisy as that Commodore of Peter Brock, of course, but a good, grunty, angry sound nonetheless and being RWD, heavy and with a normally-aspirated straight six it was a great sight to watch. Found a couple of not very good photos of Gavin's car. Obviously needed a better class of damp start in two of them but they were all I could find!

Ari Vatanen's Manta 400 sounds great at full chat on that Manx Rally clip too. I've got the whole video "In-Car Manx '83" and what's also impressive is how fast Vatanen keeps going even when the N/S/F tyre is well and truly airless towards the end of the stage ("Keep your eye out for Jimmy" - co-driver Terry Harryman advises Ari - no worries!).

Almost want to cry at where we're going these days with diesels, hybrids and electrics when you hear proper engines at work!

Incidentally, upgrading the Monza to Bosch Motronic fuel injection (taken from the next generation Senator - with the cheese-cutter front grille) was really worthwhile as Mum's car now runs cleaner, more responsively, more economically and more rapidly too - a good all-round boost thanks to a Lambda probe and a much more sophisticated ECU. All that simply from more efficient combustion! So, much quicker than before but still nowhere near a match for the 'Leaf - especially where overtaking power is concerned. That 24V, quad-cam Busso makes the 164 a very dangerous opponent out there. And virtually no one knows what it is! Don't you just love a good Q-car?
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Sud 145
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Sud 145 »

Mount_Panorama_Circuit_1024x1024.jpg
Veesix75 wrote:Double hijack.....almost an Opel, stay tuned for the in car vid pointing at the drivers face....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOq94g2HB0


Plus, I like the Monza, great colour
Mt Panorama the best circuit in the world. Did you guys know that years ago Suds took part in the Bathurst?

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LooLooSud33Spider
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

I have an ECU from an old Monza Gsi
If its any use to you .
Also got some Nos headlight protectors
(proper Alfa accessory) in a cupboard somewhere as well as some clocks and other bits and pieces.
Alfasud Ti 1984
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Mufasa
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Re: Still Going, Still T & T'd, Still Costing Money!

Post by Mufasa »

KevJTD wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:35 pm
Sorry to continue hijacking your thread...but it is Opel related...

Just enjoy the RWD lack of traction control action, these guys are Gods, you can keep your F1 thanks very much.
The "dear god" stage....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asluw_EdLrc
That save! Just wow
05Alfa1662.0GrigioGeo-Daily
03Alfa1561.8Sportwagon-BluCosmo
01Alfa1663.0Manual-Proteo Rosso
99Alfa1662.5V6GrigioNettuno-Track Car
84Alfasud1.5GoldCloverleafFlorentineCopper

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