GTV 6 – No Ignition Light & No Start.

[Nige005]

GTV 6 – No Ignition Light & No Start.

Took the ‘6 out for a run this morning, just as well the intention was for only a short trip as I broke down…………

Problems started straight away, the Indicators were running very slow, but I wasn’t too worried, as I was driving along I was thinking about the Flasher Unit and where the hell was it ?

As it turned out that became the least of the problems. About three miles on I turned the Blower on to get a bit of demisting going and at the same time thought I heard a misfire so turned off the Blower so I could hear things better. Things seemed normal for a couple of minutes and then noticed that the misfire was present on gentle acceleration, not apparent when I booted it. Then the Electronic Speedo went crazy, dropping to zero and then back up to a random indication, then zero again and so it went on. The misfire wasn’t constant but it was there and wasn’t getting better so headed for home, ensuring I kept the revs up suspecting what might happen if I let them drop, I was right.

Being an idiot I forget to pull the Hand Throttle to help me with this and of course the inevitable happened, had to stop to get past a parked car and the engine stopped.

Not even a click on turning the key, also noticed that the “ Ignition “ light didn’t come on when the key was turned to on.

Suspected Electrical problems and checked the Battery with the DMM I always carry, about 11.5 Volts, a bit low but I wouldn’t have thought terminal.

Now the one good thing about today. I had broke down outside a very nice mans ( Shane ) house and to cut a long story short he lent me a Battery to get me home. On the two mile drive home all seemed well so my thoughts were turning to the Alternator.

After taking Shane’s Battery back I started charging the Battery and tried it after about three hours, cranked normally but no start but as the Battery was dropping to just under 10 Volts on crank I thought it just needed more charge to get enough ergs to get the ECU and Injectors going so left it a bit longer.

Later……..

Tried again with much the same results, only difference was that occasionally the engine would start and run for about two seconds but with no Throttle control and then die again.

Then tried to jump start from my other car, same as before, occasionally starting for a couple of seconds and then dieing again.

To sum up a long story here is where I am when trying to jump from another car producing 14 Volts on the Alfetta Battery Terminals.

On turning key no Ignition Light.

Volts on cranking no lower than 10.5 Volts, maybe be a bit lower than it should be, possibly part of the problem.

Occasionally will fire up for about 1 – 2 seconds with no Throttle control before dieing.

Most of the time just cranking at normal speed with no sign of life.


I can’t explain this but feel the Ignition Light problem and no start must be related, could a duff Alternator prevent starting ? I know it sounds odd but……..

It’s possible the Alternator was damaged a few weeks ago when I had to drive through some flooded roads and I hadn’t noticed the Ignition light not coming on since then.

I’m at a loss right now, any suggestions welcomed. I hope to get the Alternator looked at in the next few days by an old school 'leccy, the same guy who rebuilt it for me five years ago.

But why can’t I start it from a running car ??? Alternator ???

Feel a bit discouraged, only Shane cheered me up today, there still are some good people around.

[Nige005]

So, having thought about it I have worked out a plan of action.

Fully charge Battery.

Reconnect to car and at same time check for current drain. If a large current drain could be failed Diode(s) in Alternator as the Alternator would be taking current rather than supplying it.

Check Ignition Light Bulb. If it has failed it wouldn't "excite" the Alternator, explain the Battery going Flat and of course it wouldn't light up either !

If Bulb OK disconnect this circuit from Alternator and ground the disconnected wire, this should bring Ignition Light on and so check the wiring.

Once the Ignition Light issue is sorted out ( Sounds simple doesn't it ! ) try starting.

If no start check Fuse/Fuse Box connections, especially for supply to Ignition System.

If still no go check all the Earths I can possibly find !

If only it was as quick to do as it is to write, the Alternator is not the easiest thing to get at.

Not sure that any of the above explains why there is no start with a jump start car connected, unless a failed Diode(s) in Alternator is allowing the Alternator to really slurp up the Battery volts.

Tomorrow could be interesting.

[KevJTD]

once you have the battery charged back up and fitted nige use your jump leads to make a good earth straight from battery to engine, just to eliminate incase the earth strap is one of those multi strand ones that corrode up and cause issues. had that happen before

[Nige005]

once you have the battery charged back up and fitted nige use your jump leads to make a good earth straight from battery to engine, just to eliminate incase the earth strap is one of those multi strand ones that corrode up and cause issues. had that happen before

Good idea Kev but would have to clip both Jump Leads together and even then might not be long enough, Battery is in the boot remember !!!

[KevJTD]

once you have the battery charged back up and fitted nige use your jump leads to make a good earth straight from battery to engine, just to eliminate incase the earth strap is one of those multi strand ones that corrode up and cause issues. had that happen before

Good idea Kev but would have to clip both Jump Leads together and even then might not be long enough, Battery is in the boot remember !!!

ah yes!!

might also be a cause of the problems.....voltage loss between battery and engine with the long leads?

can you measure things under the bonnet voltage wise?

[Nige005]

once you have the battery charged back up and fitted nige use your jump leads to make a good earth straight from battery to engine, just to eliminate incase the earth strap is one of those multi strand ones that corrode up and cause issues. had that happen before

Good idea Kev but would have to clip both Jump Leads together and even then might not be long enough, Battery is in the boot remember !!!

ah yes!!

might also be a cause of the problems.....voltage loss between battery and engine with the long leads?

can you measure things under the bonnet voltage wise?

Yep, I can do that Kev, another check to add to an increasing longer list !

[KevJTD]

thinking about it, i doubt that an earth lead runs from the battery to the engine/starter like a conventional car. positive lead will have to of course but i bet the earth just uses the car body.
will probably just go from the battery to a point on the car then in the engine bay there will be another lead that tries to earth return for the starter motor etc.....
one of those main connections being corroded is my 2p worth guess wise

[Nige005]

thinking about it, i doubt that an earth lead runs from the battery to the engine/starter like a conventional car. positive lead will have to of course but i bet the earth just uses the car body.
will probably just go from the battery to a point on the car then in the engine bay there will be another lead that tries to earth return for the starter motor etc.....
one of those main connections being corroded is my 2p worth guess wise

That's precisely what it is Kev. The Battery negative lead connection, from memory, is just above the Battery itself, very near. Haven't looked at this - yet !

Don't think this would affect the Ignition Light though, or would it......... ?

If the Bulb had gone in this the Alternator wouldn't work, or at best to a very minimal level. I suppose that if I'm lucky this may be that particular problem but still not clear why the engine won't start when connected to the Celica and there is what seems like a normal cranking speed, even if the Alternator was completely knadged.

The 1 - 2 second engine run when attempting to start also bothers me.

All a bit confusing.

[KevJTD]

the crank position sensor in 33's of that sort of age also powers the fuel pump, when the engine spins it kicks the pump in, can you hear the pump run when cranking? another test for you..
bound to be a similar set-up with yours i'd think.
the cps can be checked for resistance to see if it's knackered, will be somewhere in line with the flywheel, or where it would be if the alfetta was a "normal" car, not sure off hand what the readings should be though...

[KevJTD]

also agree that the dash light needs to be working for the alternator to work, happens a few times with the old campervans at work

[Nige005]

Don't usually hear the Fuel Pump running but oddly enough at one point during the shenanigans I did think that I heard an unusual noise from the Fuel Tank area, that worried me, and still does.

Thinking back whilst I was stuck on the road and tried to start up using Shane's Jump Start Battery, not the one he eventually lent me, got a puff of engine smoke from under the bonnet, I think from the MAF/Air Filter area. I was thinking maybe a backfire but I'm not sure.

I have no idea where the Crank Sensor is, I know where it has to be mechanically speaking but I've never looked for it and don't even know what it might look like !

I'm getting a touch of paranoia now !

[Nige005]

Well progress - of a sort.

Fitted charged up Battery, 12.9 Volts off load.

Turned key to " ON, " still no Ignition Light.

Cranked Engine, good speed but only results are a one second engine run with no Throttle Control. At least it did this every time so the charged up Battery seems to have made at least one difference.

Decided that until I got the Ignition Light working correctly I was wasting my efforts so concentrated on this.

Disconnected the Ignition Light/Exciter Wire from the Alternator and grounded this and the Ignition Light comes on.

So the conclusion is that I have at least one short circuit Diode or other problem in the Alternator. Unfortunately the 'leccy is on holiday so probably wont be able to do anything with it until a week on Tuesday.

Still not sure that I understand why a duff Alternator would prevent the engine starting unless it is pulling so much power from the Battery that it starves the ECU/Injector systems. Any and all thoughts are welcome, just hoping that I don't have more than one problem.

[KevJTD]

can you try starting it with that wire disconnected from the alternator?
if it is shorting it out at least you'll know then...

[Nige005]

can you try starting it with that wire disconnected from the alternator?
if it is shorting it out at least you'll know then...

I did try that Kev and just got the " one Second run " thing.

If I'm understanding things correctly the Light is just indicating the problem and the fault in the Alternator, Diodes or something else, would be reflected on the main output terminals, or perhaps in this case the output terminals that have now become Input terminals !!!

I feel pretty sure that the Alternator is the cause of the Ignition Light Problem, just can't quite get my head around the non starting bit. I could try disconnecting the Main Terminals but I have a nagging feeling that I shouldn't do this. Can't give a valid reason for this, just a feeling I have that this could cause other problems.

It would be a heck of a coincidence if it had developed two separate faults at the same time but we are talking about a 32 year old Alfa here !

[KevJTD]

spoke to tom this afternoon at cadwell nige, asked about your car

he suggested it sounds like the fuel pump isn't functioning as intended, think we questioned that a few posts back?
anyway he suggested trying to put a temporary positive supply direct to the pump to see if that makes it whirr into life, then try and start the car.
if it does you know where the issues lie.
the relay for the pump is also something that has given trouble over the years he says, both on alfetta's and 75's. it's located on the bulkhead on the right hand side, although i didn't think to ask if that's as you look at it from the front or from the drivers seat! but it should be one side or the other....
at least if the temporary wiring to the pump gets the engine running then it'sgetting to the bottom of things.

he agreed that a failing alternator would be unlikely to cause your problems now the battery has good voltage.

maybe when you went through the deep water it splashed into the relay and has corroded the contacts inside it?
sure a fella of your electrical prowess will be able to overhaul a relay

[Nige005]

Hi Kev.

Yes we did talk about the Fuel Pump and I also mentioned that I thought I'd heard a funny noise from that area at one point. A faulty Fuel Pump does make a lot of sense given the symptoms.

Snag is I don't know where to look for all these things you mentioned, I'm going to have to try and discover where they all are.

[Nige005]

Just looked at the Manual and the Pump is located somewhere under the car so it could well be a bad connection there caused by the bloody water I had to drive through. This will be my next port of call I think.

I've found three Relays on the RH ( nearside ) Bulkhead but up to now I haven't been able to identify what they do.

Difficult to much safe testing att as I have taken this opportunity to tart up the Battery " Well " and have just applied a coat of Rust Preventer to it. To check for Volts on to the Pump the Engine has to be cranked. Could connect up the Battery using the Jump Leads but as I don't like big bangs and electric flashes........

[Nige005]

Anyone know what the chances are of developing two non related faults on an old Alfa at the same time ?

No ? I'll tell you at the end of this Post.

This morning I started testing why I couldn't start the Engine.

Tested the Volts getting to the Fuel Pump by clipping on the DMM, got about 9 Volts on cranking, perhaps a bit low but I was clipped fairly loosely to the outside of a very dirty connection on the Pump so wasn't sure if this was significant or not. Then tested the Fuel Pump by direct connection to the Battery, could hear it running and saw it was drawing about four Amps, seemed about right to me. Tried starting whilst I still had it directly connected but just the usual one second start and then the Engine died again.

Mmmm.

Feeling stupid but knew that for peace of mind I had to dis connect the Alternator to rule out my nagging doubt that an internal fault on the Alternator was causing the non start. You've guessed it, no change, still no start.

OK, now what ? Back to the Fuse Box. Despite having already visually checked that all the Fuses were still intact I measured the Volts on both sides of each Fuse, all OK.

Being of a cynical and suspicious nature and remembering a similar problem on an Alfetta Saloon I had years ago I was still suspicious. Pinched together the Fuse and Holder of Fuse # 5 ( Injector System Supply ) whilst cranking......... Bingo, the Engine lives ! Vroom Vroom ! Cleaned up the Fuse Holder and replaced the Fuse as a matter of course and all is well now, at least as far as the Engine Starts go.

I hate these Ceramic Type Fuses and Holders, useless bloody things, over the years they have caused me more problems than I can shake a big stick at.

Connected the Alternator back up, singeing my arm in the process but what's a little bit of pain compared with the joy of having a running Alfa V6..........

Still have no Ignition Light and now the Engine was running I could check the Charge which is......... Zilch, Zero, Bugger All. In fact a net loss compared with the Voltage when the Engine is not running, which is what you'd expect with an Alternator problem. So I'm left with a faulty Alternator by the looks of things and I can't do much with this until my mate the auto 'leccy gets back from holiday next week.

So the answer to the question posed at the top of this diatribe is - 100%, two separate non related electrical problems happened at the same time, I'm sure Alfas do it on purpose just to confuse simple souls like me.

[Johnboy]

but at least you've found the faults , so fair play to that

[Nige005]

but at least you've found the faults , so fair play to that

And I'm relieved to have done so John, was starting ( pun sorta intended ! ) to get a bit worried about it as any complicated problems in the Injection/Sensor Systems would have been a nightmare to find.

[Johnboy]

Yeah agree , electrics can be a nightmare , I find it very satisfying when faults are found and fixed ! Now let's wait for the next one

[Nige005]

I hope there isn't a next one.........

I also have fairies at the bottom of my garden !

[Nige005]

Well the '6 is back in working order !

In summary:-

Non Starting was due to poor contact between Fuse 5 and it's Holder in the Fusebox despite the Voltage on each side of the Fuse looking good under no load conditions..

No Ignition Light and No Charge was due to an Open Circuit Regulator on the Alternator.

Fixing/Replacing the Reg was a ten minute job, removing and re fitting the Alternator takes two hours, not a lot of fun as it's a very tight fit and the Engine has to be lifted slightly to remove the bottom Alternator bolt. Lots of happiness all round........

Why both faults developed at much the same time is something I'll probably never know.