The end of Alfa as we know it

Whats on your mind? Alfa related or otherwise, the funnier the better!
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KevJTD
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The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

The title suggests doom and gloom, it's written as a statement rather than a question.
My own opinion of course, nothing more
But the PSA/Fiat group merger of recent times I could only see further dilution of the brand.
This was only confirmed to me when we started seeing the current range of Vauxhall cars that are clearly just rebadged Peugeots, same running gear, same interior layout, even still has the same Peugeot tyre pressure stickers in the doorway.
There's going to be a new MiTo and Punto replacements soon...based on Peugeot 208.....
Now we all know that there have been Fiat based Alfa's for some time now, but Peugeot? At least Fiat had Italian flair in the blood rather than the French blandness, long since that they made interesting cars, even by their own fans admission!
Some might say that a French Alfa is better than no Alfa, but is it really?
The merger also promised, yet again, of a revival of the Lancia brand. I'd sooner it be let lie in peace.
Giulietta JTD 170
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alfadave
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by alfadave »

Hope they give the styling to Alfa!

Harry_p
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Harry_p »

It is sad, but it seems to be the way all cars are going.

There’s no room for flair and quirks any more.

Take pretty much any 5 door family hatch from the last few years, cover the grille and badges and I bet 99% of people would have no idea what any of them were by looking at or driving them.

While it’s true there are really and bad cars any more, it’s also true there aren’t really any great cars any more. No one has the balls to try any thing different and legislation has clamped down on what they’re allowed to do anyway.

I’m just hoping I can carry on driving my old ones for a few more decades.
Italian: ‘69 fiat 850 saloon, ‘80 alfasud super, 2012 Mito multiair 135
German: ‘72 VW dormobile camper, ‘87 Mk2 GTi 8v, ‘89 e30 m3, ‘96 e36 m3 evo saloon, ‘98 e36 318ti compact sport, ‘06 merc clk350
British: ‘94 metro gti 1.8, ‘91 metro 1.1c

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

Your quite right Harry. I used to pride myself in my car identification skills even from several hundred yards I’d be able to tell you the make and model and even if it had non std wheels or other mods fitted. However These days everything looks the same and not in good way !!
Alfasud Ti 1984
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

Yes I do agree there has, for some time now, been a big melting pot where everything comes out similarly,
But at least Alfa tried to make a drivers car still, even if the latest stuff has gone too far away from that ideal already, who would have thought Auto only would be a thing?!
But even if they dress it up a bit, put a few Italian touches to it, the underpinnings and hence how it drives will be Peugeot.
I'd pick a good handling car over a good looker any day of the week, the 145 QV is a fabulous car for the way it drives far more for its looks. The 156 was truly ground-breaking in both departments, fantastic looks with the image of a coupe but it also drove well due to clever suspension whilst pretty much everybody used cheaper McPherson struts.
My daily driver Giulietta just about gets away with things, driving feeling is decent and it has a few styling differences to distinguish it amongst the carpark, but the Giulia I will never own as they won't make a manual RHD, Stelvio looks pretty much like a Mazda CX-5/Jaguar E-Pace etc etc and don't get me started on the Toe Nail... :roll:

When my Giulietta dies I'll replace it with another newer one, then I'm afraid I see no point in buying another.
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

And while I'm having a moan about how cars are going, why WHY WHY do we need the car to decide when it's dark and we need the lights on, which they can't friggin do anyway as in daylight but dull drizzle they don't come on and the dumb bstrds driving them are too thick to override it, and why is it such a bloody strain now to us to be able to pull up a lever to stop the car rolling away and who decided it bets to add complicated electric motors and control units that in a lot of systems just pull on the bloody cable anyway!!! Which means you have to plug a computer in to change the bloody pads!!!
And do NOT tell me that electric/hybrid cars are the future. This is the biggest blind alley in the history of motorised transport.
And those muppets who think that putting an electric motor in a classic means it's still a classic, do me a favour, Some dope has even taken the engine out of his Ferrari 308 and stuck some expanded duracells in there, WTF! The whole point of a Ferrari is the engine, without it you may as well just bolt it to the side of your shed and look at it, driving it is like putting your fridge on pallet wheels and taking it for a walk, mobile white goods.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

alfadave
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by alfadave »

Its clearly time you stopped working on modern cars for a living, and set up your own restoration business!

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Crank »

I have nothing to add as I agree 100% with all thats been said here and also plan to keep the cars I have for ever. But if someone put a gun to my head and forced me to buy a new car, it would be either an MX5 or Toyota 86GT.
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Kegsti66
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Kegsti66 »

Crank wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 am
I have nothing to add as I agree 100% with all thats been said here

Me too. It will only get to a point where we just have a vessel (as the Millennials will want to change the name of all transport). Stop us driving once we are over sixty years of age, unless we own a "vessel" that Google controls and we use a smart phone to program where we want to go.
Kev, were we separated at birth? :lol:

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

I've chilled today :lol:

Started the drive home from the unit last night, car felt odd, stopped and half flat tyre. Shame I didn't have a computer to tell me, had to rely on feeling the differences..
But I can see the sense in TPMS although they are too sensitive. Unlike most drivers.

I'm trying to amass enough cars with fuel burning engines and minimal electronics to see me through into a window seat at the Asylum, where I'll be reunited with a few like minded individuals I guess! :D
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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junior
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by junior »

I think we will find that manufacturers will decide to make their electric cars more interesting as they are already concerned that people find them boring. I have no idea what they will do, but someone has to cater for the Luddites among us.

Perhaps that is the business one needs to get into ....enjoyable electric cars. :o

Met this chap last week and he sent me a link that is beautifully shot even if you are not into electric or motorbikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82VTPuFGxs4.

He again was not a fan of modern cars as they are not solving any problems. ! Which I feel is correct.

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Sud 145 »

The very first thing I did when getting my Mito was turn off the drl's, I also really don't need an alarm to tell me that the door is open or I've not got my seatbelt on. Q1 - do cars with rain sensors need a manual switch because the system may fail? Q2 - how many times have electric handbrakes failed when the discs have cooled down? Asking because I haven't driven a modern with all the bells and whistles. I'm defo in the "Luddite" camp.

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

We live on a hill and one day someone had parked a new mini outside our house while they dropped their rugrats off at the school around the corner suddenly I saw it starting to roll away. Luckily I was outside and managed to stop it before it got any momentum.
I was stood there for about 10mins before she came back and just said “oh has the handbrake come off again”as though it wasn’t a surprise . She said thanks. To which I replied. No worries I was actually more concerned about saving my neighbours wall !!! She seemed miffed and didn’t park outside our house again .
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Sud 145 »

There's no antidote for "STUPID" then Lou. :roll:

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

KevJTD wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:01 pm
And while I'm having a moan about how cars are going, why WHY WHY do we need the car to decide when it's dark and we need the lights on, which they can't friggin do anyway as in daylight but dull drizzle they don't come on and the dumb bstrds driving them are too thick to override it, and why is it such a bloody strain now to us to be able to pull up a lever to stop the car rolling away and who decided it bets to add complicated electric motors and control units that in a lot of systems just pull on the bloody cable anyway!!! Which means you have to plug a computer in to change the bloody pads!!!
And do NOT tell me that electric/hybrid cars are the future. This is the biggest blind alley in the history of motorised transport.
And those muppets who think that putting an electric motor in a classic means it's still a classic, do me a favour, Some dope has even taken the engine out of his Ferrari 308 and stuck some expanded duracells in there, WTF! The whole point of a Ferrari is the engine, without it you may as well just bolt it to the side of your shed and look at it, driving it is like putting your fridge on pallet wheels and taking it for a walk, mobile white goods.
Yes, saw that Fezza. Apparently the V8 had been nicked out of it, presumably by some dodgy garage (I can't imagine its something you could do in the driveway), and the owner replaced it with a Tesla motor. Plenty of fun on Youtube doing elevenses but not much use otherwise, and as you say, none of the excitement of the real thing.

What gets me still is autonomous electric racing cars. That will really pack the stands with spectators - not! What do you do? Just program in the course, set them off and let them get on with it...

Stick to classics - they are just better. No point trying to kid yourself that a badge-engineered Pug is a genuine thoroughbred.

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

“Autonomous Electric racing cars”. Are you shitting me !!!!
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

My reservations about the Peugeot tie-up and also founded on the terrible fixtures and fittings under the bonnet on the French stuff, everything is just plastic fittings which seem capable of being removed once, but one only. Time and time again a Peugeot or Citroen comes in and there is stuff flapping away as it's broken, and I'm not just talking high miles older cars, within a few years a lot of stuff is beyond use.
If the Punto/MiTo replacement goes the way of the current Astra/Corsa then all the mechanicals will be the French stuff and it will be just grilles and badges that get changed, as in the Vauxhall range.
I really can't see Stellantis allowing whole new cars to be designed when they've already said it will be based on the Peugeot 208.
As we've already surmised, cars are looking more and more similar to each other nowadays, which people have accepted it seems, so why not just make them the same but stick whatever badge on. After all, the vast majority of buyers base their purchase on the badge rather than the capabilities of what they're buying, as has been said if most drivers were faced with a row of badgeless cars they'd struggle to name the makers, even after driving them!

If this is the future I'll stick in the past, thanks. ;)
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

Here you go, here's the future.
This, as can be seen, is a 70 plate Vauxhall Corsa (2020/21 model year for non UK viewers) which is part of the group controlling the PSA group product but FIAT group stuff.
This is a direct Peugeot badge engineered job.
Same dash, same engine, same suspension and brakes, PSA group lights, same seat belts even! If anyone thinks Alfa will be allowed to design anything more than a new grille are kidding themselves.
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Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
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Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

What a sorry excuse for a car.

I used to have a preference for GM over Ford (I had an HA Viva and then a brace of Firenzas, the latter a droop snoot), but I wouldn't buy anything new now - in fact the droop snoot was the last true Vauxhall, designed in the UK with UK running gear. Everything after that was a re-badged Opel.

I have always loved Mopars (Chrysler Corp., Dodge, Plymouth etc.), but wouldn't consider anything new of theirs either - the last great Mopar was probably the '74 Charger, and that was a pale shadow of its former self.

The last true Lancia was the ill-fated Gamma (what a lovely machine, particularly in coupe form), with its bonkers engineering. Everything that came afterwards was a Fiat, including the Montecarlo (originally a Pininfarina proposal for a follow-on to the X1/9, and called the X1/20).

Why should Alfa be any different? The last true Alfas were the transaxle cars, the Alfa 33, and a handful of boxer engine 145/6). I know everyone likes the 155, but it was a Fiat underneath too. It's ironic that Alfa Romeo lost its soul (and passion :lol: ) when it ceased to be a state-owned concern and became part of Fiat. You would think it would be the other way around, but look at some of the highlights...

The T33 racing programme and the Stradale hypercar it spawned;
The Alfasud - radical engineering from stem to stern, and built in flagrant breach of the "gentleman's agreement" with Fiat, that permitted the Alfa to build only big cars;
The Busso V6, the transaxle cars, Trofeo Alfasud (the one-make racing series), the flat-12 racing programme with Brabham and others... all done under the auspices of a state-owned car company!

Lauren

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

LooLooSud33Spider wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm
“Autonomous Electric racing cars”. Are you shitting me !!!!
Better believe it - it's the future you know. Soon the cars won't need us humans to drive them, they'll be off roaming the countryside, racing each other, doing donuts in Tesco's car park... :lol:

Autonomy is just the latest fad. I mean, what's the point of buying a performance car and then not driving it yourself???

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

Every time I think about the situation and say "it's not a proper Alfa" Lauren it reminds me of what you've said, and that everyone said the post FIAT Alfa/Lancia cars were never the same, so is it really any different?
Well my Delta shared a lot with the FIAT Strada of course, my Dedra likewise has FIAT DNA in the same way as the 155 had.
But crucially they were allowed to adapt suspensions etc and use their own engines, I fear that won't be allowed as seen by the Vauxhall above,,
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

You're right, I remember when the marque purists said the Alfasud wasn't a proper Alfa Romeo, but the situation is a lot worse now. At least back in the 70s and 80s there were still opportunities to uniquely identify different brands with clever engineering, now it is so tightly regulated and homogenised that nobody bothers. And worse still, the people that buy the cars don't care either - no wonder everyone wants an electric milk float these days!

I guess it must be worse for you, as you have to work with modern cars every day. I haven't been near one since January last year, when I had some miserable Renault hire car... I think :roll:

I couldn't believe it when Lamborghini, Bentley and even Rolls Royce sold out and produced SUVs. Have these companies got no pride left at all???

It's the end, I tell you :lol:

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

I just realised today why I don't watch BTCC any more - you can't tell what make of car is being driven.

Normally I would clock the shape, but as Lou says, you can't differentiate one make from another these days, and all the sponsorship decals act like camouflage. So the next thing is to look at the driver line-up, but in BTCC that doesn't help either - Team Hard, Team Halfords, Cicely Racing etc. Unless you know which driver is pedalling which car that season, the make and model come in a poor third after the driver and the race team.

And when they get out on track all they do is crash all the time. I really have no time for this sorry spectacle, even if there are one or two Alfas running around at the back (are there any this season?)

All of the above proves my point I think :(

Lauren

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Harry_p »

What’s happened in the btcc kind of echos what’s happening in the wider automotive world.

Costs were spiralling so they brought in standardised components and sub assemblies so the cars all become pretty much the same just attached to a different body, but as you say the cars all look so similar it’s hard to form any kind of brand allegiance.

I think 1994 when the 155 dominated was the peak, the year after they started the standardised aero regs to prevent homologation specials and gradually the cars started to look less and less like the road versions. The reason I first bought my bmw e36 saloon was because it was one of the cars I grew up watching in the early 90s, I had ( and still have ) a 1/10th scale RC version in my teens.

I hadn’t thought about it until the above Peugeot post, suddenly the move towards digital dash displays and touch screens becomes clear, why develop a new dash or cluster when you can spend a couple of hours sticking a new skin on the same component used on three other models.
Italian: ‘69 fiat 850 saloon, ‘80 alfasud super, 2012 Mito multiair 135
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

2 years ago almost to the day I wrote this title thread, and now it's true.
On looking at the "new" Tonale recently at SAD I noted how it was very familar inside, almost exactly the same as many a Peugeot/Vauxhall inside. Although I couldn't see under the bonnet the listed engines look all too familiar from the Stellantis group which just uses the PSA ones, or the FORD developed wet belt engine. Fills me with dread. Well, it doesn't really as I won't be continuing with ALFA ownership beyond the Giulietta. Maybe a newer Giulietta when this one expires but nothing they made since ignites me enough to buy. The Giulia is almost there, a nice looking saloon but the lack of a manual for us here means that's a non starter. Now I know people say the auto is a good one and maybe it is, but I drive for the pleasure of driving and that just misses something for me, like having your own one armed bandit at home with the back off, not much pleasure from winning the jackpot.

The "quality" of the parts now used in the stellantis group is so poor from what I've come across, like number plate lamp units that won't come out to change a blown bulb without the fixing tabs breaking off. This afternoon we had a Citroen DS3, a Vauxhall Corsa and a Peugeot of some sort all of a similar age, and so many service item parts are the same. Now I know some may see that as good and to some degree it is, but dig deeper and it is a reflection that they are the same car and will drive the same and be just another car with a different badge. I can only assume that the Tonale falls staright into the same bracket, an ALFA by name only and no more special than anything else.
I have had this conversation fairly recently with a like minded Sud owner who also sees the current range as nothing to get excited by and we agree that products from KIA and Hyundai are much more appealing now, both produce cars devoid of the obsession with stupidity, namely the dumbing down of the driver by having electric handbrakes and the likes, believe it or not there are still car makers out there who give you an ignition barrel to hold your keys while driving instead of using a cupholder, they think you have enough common sense to know when it's dark to switch your lights on (Fords now default to auto setting no matter what you do) if it starts raining then put your own wipers on, you know what a handbrake lever is for rather than having to have a switch do that for you, they even give you a spare wheel for goodness sake!
So ALFA it's farewell, good while it lasted.
The fate of Lancia is no better going by the rumours and words coming out of stellantis, new Delta coming that is electric.... :(
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by alfadave »

I just ignore modern car developments, and drive something older, simpler, easier to fix, and more fun to drive.

Of course, being retired helps!

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Spacenut »

KevJTD wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 7:39 pm
2 years ago almost to the day I wrote this title thread, and now it's true.
Give it up Kev, the rest of us already have. Find a solid classic, one with strong spares support like a 105 series or a transaxle car, update the engine if you must (if the shell and running gear is 40 years old it will still be MoT exempt) and just drive it!

Your loyalty to the brand has been unwavering, and this is how you have been repaid. I despair when I read the pages and pages of F1 coverage in the AROC magazine. A pair of re-badged Saubers running around at the back of the pack, it says it all really. You need to take a leaf out of the Mopar book - when I was in the MMA, El Presidente tried to forge closer relations with Chrysler, but happened to mention in an editorial that the Neon was overpriced compared to prices in Europe. He was immediately threatened with legal action by Chrysler! Nobody in the MMA joined the club because they owned a Crossfire, or a Voyager, or a Neon - they all hanker for the glory days of the Charger and Challenger. It wouldn't have made a jot of difference if Chrysler was still in business or not, there is no spares support for 60 year old cars.

I think it will have to be the same with Alfa Romeo - nobody will thank you for continuing to buy new "Alfas", it would be better to let the marque wither on the vine rather than keep limping along as the Lancia nameplate has. At least we will have fond memories, rather than the nightmare vision of a French platform wearing a prestige badge.

Find a solid tax and MoT exempt shell and put in a modern engine. If a Vauxhall Red Top can be fitted to a Ford Bullet 'box it must be possible to do something similar with a modern Giulia engine and a 105 series, surely?

Lauren

PS - regarding the electric car debate, I see the rules have recently changed to allow small scale manufacture of petrol cars to continue after 2030 - GMA and Morgan are two examples. Hopefully the continued availability of new petrol models, together with the huge numbers of older vehicle that won't be replaced by electric vehicles because nobody can afford to run them will keep the petrol stations open!

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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by KevJTD »

Wise words Lauren, no point banging my head against the wall anymore, nobody is listening are they. Whatever we say or do will not change things a jot.
The whole Chrysler thing is very much along the same lines, and actually a sticking point for me changing the Giulietta as a few Lancia club members have bought a Chrysler Delta and retro fitted the Lancia parts back to, originally a designated Lancia product but the powers that be decided it wouldn't sell here as a Lancia so they were sold here as Chryslers! Sure you're aware of it. They actually share a lot with the Giulietta I believe, but I can't bring myself to do it.

Interesting that the small scale people like Morgan have been given dispensation, the more manufacturers are still needing petrol then we may have a chance. The new synthetic fuels look interesting but I very much doubt they will be suitable for our old cars. I have the Dedra and Delta ready for use this year whilst I can still drive them!
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Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

Post by Kegsti66 »

Yes, we have all said this before, and boy were my ears burning Kev :lol:

The small scale manufactures' given dispensation to, will slowly change to low production number "Premium Products" as the big picture will be for the common people to be limited to basic "units". There will still be Hyper cars and obscenely expensive toys for the elite to own and use. I can't see all these multi billion dollar Super Yachats being built without the use of Diesel power.

I think our cars are just the tip of the iceberg to be honest about how our future world is going to be run :|

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Spacenut
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Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:43 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: The end of Alfa as we know it

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I don't think the pace of change will be fast enough to save the planet from a climate catastrophe. Even Gardener's World are talking about how to change our gardening habits in order to adapt to climate change :lol: . But it won't happen fast enough. The Taliban in their Toyota Hiluxes and Ukrainian tank commanders have other priorities. So do farmers in the poorest regions of the globe, where there is no electricity infrastructure.

I hear there is talk of converting street lamps into charging stations for those cars that have to be parked in the street, which is a good idea, but even if every street lamp in the country were so converted, they wouldn't amount to more than a quarter of the number of cars in use today.

And what of "bangernomics"? Today you can still pick up a banger for s few hundred quid, run it into the ground, scrap it and buy another one. Sure, you can buy an old electric car for a lot less than they cost when new, but they will invariably arrive with a knackered battery pack, which can only be replaced at a cost of thousands of pounds. And as each manufacturer's battery pack is unique to their model/brand, the idea of salvaging a battery pack from one car and putting it into another make/model is a risky prospect for the home mechanic :(

So I think petrol and diesel will be around for some considerably time yet. Just look at light aviation, where they still use leaded petrol because to suffer valve seat recession at altitude is not just inconvenient, it is likely to be fatal! Imagine an electric aviator trying to pull out of a stall, only to be calmly informed that there isn't enough charge left in the battery :roll:

Lauren

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