Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

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petteri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by petteri »

I finally checked that which is origin of the engine in my Sprint QV. Surprisingly the engine number is AR30520, which seems to mean that it comes from Alfa 33 1.5, with only 90 hp. I heard from previous owner that engine has been replaced due to snapped belt.

Does anybody know how these engines differ? Is there different cylinder heads, valves etc. and how to identify them?

Car did feel like missing a couple of horse powers before starting still ongoing restoration - now there seems to be natural explanation for missing 15hp at least :mrgreen:

bobkelso
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by bobkelso »

Hi,
can I ask you if your engine has twin lob cam/tappets systems
or the shims cam/tappets systems?

I think the more easy way to know (unless some heads swap)
what engine is to read the engine code on the block
( as you did, 30520 for ex.);

(and sometimes two different codes refesr to the same engine
if it is been used before on sud and later on 33, with slightly
differences only in accessories but not in the mecanical parts)

Because there were quite a lot of 1500 twincarb mechanical
tappets engines (quite similar in external aspect)
with 90-95cv or 105cv but sligthly differences in heads intake,
carburators, differences in cam height,
probably if compairing between older engine and newer ones
also pistons with slightly different shape/height (compression-ratio)
some engines had twin lob cam/tappets systems,
some engines had shims cam/tappets systems,
(in 1990 the 105Cv will have also hydraulic tappets)

If some more expert know,
I'm not sure about the group of 1500 mechanical tappets twincarb engines:

> if some engines get the slightly bigger diameter intake valve as later boxers

> if all have 36mm nominal carbs or some get 40mm as later boxers

> if they all had head with flat combustion chamber
or some get the later boxer not flat combustion chamber head
(similar to the like 1.7 engines and all the later hydraulic tappets engine)

petteri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by petteri »

This engine has shim system.
Carburettors are 36 IDFs but they could be swapped from the original 105hp engine.

EDIT: I answer myself about carburettors. I found from Alfa 33 workshop manual that 90hp and 105hp both had 36IDFs but different versions.
Carburettors of my car seems to be from 105hp version.
Attachments
Sprint_Camcover_Open.JPG
MyIDF.JPG
Difference.JPG

petteri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by petteri »

Here is some more research. Data is from here: http://alfasprint.extra.hu/pdf/Alfasud_mech_opt.pdf.
Did not really clarify much but there seems to be different camshaft for different versions. Probably scanning of that camshaft page did not succeed and the last line explaining the black&white pyramid symbol is missing...

But how should I understand the info about valves and camshaft casing? Is it own components for 105hp versions + Australian version OR only for Australian 105hp version?
Attachments
valve – kopio.JPG
camshaft – kopio.JPG
camshaft_casing – kopio.JPG

bobkelso
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by bobkelso »

Hi,
for what I can read differences between 95 and 105
(so we exclude all engines with one double-carburetor)
where about:

- carburetors
(36 nominal, with 32mm venturi inner diameter instead of 30mm for 95cv)
- not sure about different head air intake port and intake collectors just below carburetors
- camshaft with more timing and more heigh on Intake cams
(9.5 mm or 10 mm in 105cv engines depending on the year,
instead of 9.0 mm or 9.5 mm on 95cv depending on year)
(manuals says for both OUT cams are probably 8,5 mm or eventually 9.0 mm)
- sligtly different diameter of exhaust collectors?
- diffent ignition curve advance?
- wondering if the camshaft housing note you asked was referring
to differenced with previous engines with split lobe camshaft (for example 85cv)
or opposite with new sprint 1.7 I.E. hydraulic tappets (from 1987, the date of the page),
and not some differences between 95-105cv, that have the same engine bases;

PS.: if you eventually discover to have on the engine higher lift cams (see above) maybe
your 30520 engine has been mixed not only with carburetors from 105cv versions, but also heads?

Ok..some 1.5 engine codes:

95cv:
> sprint-sud >>>>> engine 301.28 (camshaft 536627)
> alfa 33 second version of 1.5 Q.O. and some early 4x4/wagon >>> engine 505.20 and 305.14 ??

105cv (nominal, some says only some versions had the rated power)
> sprint 83 QV (and some sud TI) >> 301.46 (and you found also 301.82)
> alfa 33 QV /TI >> 301.46 (used on 33 ?), 305.08 (1.5 Q.V 1984 ?), 305.88 (1.5 TI 1986?)

Not easy know small differences beetwen engine codes of same nominal power,
also articles on old review used to cite wrong engine code and specifications,
difficoult also know years of production of each code,
hope someone that has these engines can add/correct other details.

Also I'm not sure about this:
at some moment there was a version of 105cv engine with
an aggressive camshaft with 10.2mm INtake cam height
(and pistons worked with valve pockets o avoid interference?)
but a later version was with less aggressive setup and was same/more efficient;
that camshaft that was a bit to much 'wild' on a 1.5, it will be re-used instead
as a more correct one to give enouth air, with same valve diameters, on the 1.7 Q.V. 118cv,
hope someone know better about this special camshafts/versions

It seams also before 1987 (1986?) all boxer engines are "flat heads" design,
(instead pistons can vary from year to year starting from Sud to arrive to last 33)
and all (or almost all) the versions "high performance",
the ones with two separated double carbs we are talking about,
has the shrims valve adjustement system and
no more the split lobe cams used on less powered versions
(but I'm not sure, someone say me there was also a 1.5 95cv with split lobe cams??),
and already are all "big valves" version (intake 40mm instead of 38mm diameter)
maybe only some earlier 1.3 S 86cv still having 'small' 38mm intake valve;
so probably we are talking of a group of engines sharing
all same mechanical tappets, shrims system, same valves,
the type about 98-97mm long
(previous split lobe camshaft system engines have valves about 92-93mm long)

From 1988 (or from late 1986?):
there was for each model two versions on the market, also for 1.5 105cv,
the 'old' flat head engines and a new type with head dished some millimeters
(and pistons slightly different to mantein the same RC at about 9.5:1 );
This head dished design there was at first used with the 1.7 Q.V. 118cv in 1986,
also if this engine was not labelled as RON 95;
After this (in late 1986 or in 1988) some new engines was prepared
to be labeled " RON95 " version of both 1.3s 86cv and 1.5 105cv;
the new conbustion, now head half in the piston half in the head,
should have some advantages, maybe it is more fuel efficent,
or give less pollutant, or has better control of knocking;
also RON95 engines have all 'big' diameter valves
but valves are some mm shorter due to disched head chamber,
i.e. valves are about 93-94mm long

Dished head 105cv version could be (??) the 305.88 engine?
(if so, also 305.86 1.3 79cv and 305.87 1.3 S 86cv are RON 95 version)

The 1988(1986?) dished head engines already has intake air prepared to macth
the 40mm nominal diameter carburetors (but inner venturi max measure
it remains the same 32mm of your actual "36mm nominal" set-up);
not sure if some of these 95RON engines got 40mm carburetors already on
305 alfa 33 (manuals pdf say yes but have some corrections with errors
so don't know if they are correct) or only with later 307 alfa 33 from 89;

1988 new head engines are more similar to the engines that will be used
in 307 alfa 33 series 3 years 89-94, when it will be used also on 1.3 and 1.5
hydraulic tappets and applied some other minor corrections,
one important is a better and unique camshaft for all 8v engines,
it is the camshaft that was previously used on 1.7 I.E. 110cv,
but not used on the more common 1.7 I.E 105cv catalitic/Euro1 version,
this has a little quiter camshaft (about 35mm vs 37mm total cams height);
the last 33 series this camshaft ("37mm") has a quite good
9.8mm IN /9.0mm OUT cams, it is more than most previous
boxer engines (except 1987 1.7 QV and maybe one 1.5 TI)
but with a well balanced timing, we know last series run
quite well/easy, from 1.3 to 1.7, carb or I.E. ;
hydraulic tappet engines has all same 'big' valves about 92mm long

this to say that later series pistons, heads, camshaft,
are quite good also respect some previous 'performance' engine,
they lack only a kit to adapt mechanical tappets,
to give an 'old time' aspect if used on older car and more reliability
(sometimes hydraulic tappets tend to fail
for example if car is not used for a long time)
One could mix a mechanical camshaft housing with later series 3
camshafts/heads/valves/pistons (camshaft as to be years 89-91,
after 1991-92 it changed a bit the shape of the ending of the camshafts
and of the housing, with this minor change this very later camshafts
are no more compatible with previous mechanical tappet housing)
and some shrims on/under tappets or modifyng the camshaft housing
to correct 1 mm differences on valve lenght,
I read on forum some have done this mix and modification,
or used some kits (like AHM or the "Trofeo kit" used to have mechanical
tappets on alfa 33 1.3 running in the italian 33 Trofeo until some years ago:
https://www.autodromomagione.com/2018-t ... 4-gennaio/ )

Sorry for my poor english and some errors about the engine history,
I used to work mainly with later alfa 33 series 3 engines, so missing a lot of info,
I writed this also to see if someone that had/worked on previous engines
or has some "original" manual without errors can clarify
some references about different engine codes ;)

Ps.: the page marked 1984 you posted with 30.520 and 30.182 engine codes,
from what car manual is from? Sprint? some online pdf or paper?
I never founded the 30.182 code, wondering what car was or if for not italian country

petteri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by petteri »

bobkelso wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:08 pm

Ps.: the page marked 1984 you posted with 30.520 and 30.182 engine codes,
from what car manual is from? Sprint? some online pdf or paper?
I never founded the 30.182 code, wondering what car was or if for not italian country
It is this manual: alfasprint.extra.hu/pdf/33_dualcarb_manual.pdf

Thank you for very good information. I was indeed thinking that camshafts and camshaft casings are taken from 105hp engine in my car and cylinder and valves are from 90hp engine. What led me to think this, is that valve gaps are wrong for 6 valves...
Attachments
valve_gaps.png

bobkelso
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by bobkelso »

Hi, thanks for the link!
the page has usefull manuals I had not,
they permits make correlation between
old spare parts codes and new codes

Ps.: not sure if I read correctly the image,
valve gaps are so different from correct ones?

One interesting document for your topic is this one:

http://alfasprint.extra.hu/pdf/Alfasud_ ... on_Doc.pdf

the "fiche technique" contains photos and measures
of details of body car and engines:

>>>> Alfasud Sprint Veloce 1.5 95cv

in italy engine code 301.28 used from 1979,
I think quite similar to the engine 30.520

(- carburetors 36 but with smaller inner venturi)
- intake collectors lower part: 31 mm
- intake head ports: 31 mm
- exhaust head ports: 30/31 mm
- exhaust colectors: 32 mm
- valves ('big' ones 40mm): IN 39.8 mm x h 97,9 mm OUT 32 mm x h 97,2 mm
- RC : 9.3:1 ( 44,3 cc) - corrected/revisited/maximum 9.8:1 ( 42 cc)
- cams (if you see the pictures in the document you see how to measure a x b )
IN a x b = 27.8 x 36,8 mm ( b-a = 9,0mm + 0,6mm excentricity = 9,6 mm lift )
OUT a x b = 27.8 x 36,3 mm ( b-a = 8,5mm + 0,6mm excentricity = 9,1 mm lift )
(If I read correctly the explanation in the document,
these values have to be reduced by free gaps 0,4 and 0,5 mm,
so an effective lift of 9,2 mm and 8,6 mm )


>> Alfasud Sprint 1.5 Q.V. 105cv

in italy engine code 30.146
used from 1982 on Alfasud 1.5 TI Q.V.,
used from 1983 on Sprint 1.5 Q.V.;
used also on first Alfa 33 1.5 Q.V. 1984-86

(- carburetors 36 but with larger inner venturi)
- intake collectors lower part: 33/33.5 mm (larger, same that later heads 1989-1994)
- intake head ports: 33/33.5 mm (larger)
- exhaust head ports: 30/31 mm, same that 95cv engine
- exhaust colectors: 32 mm, same but it get a bit larger after some centimers
- valves and RC: I think same data that 95cv engine
- cams: wilder in timing (see tables in the document) and lift
IN a x b = 25.8 x 35,8 mm ( b-a = 10,0mm + 0,6mm excentricity = 10,6 mm lift )
OUT a x b = 27.8 x 36,8 mm ( b-a = 9,0mm + 0,6mm excentricity = 9,6 mm lift )
(we have to reduce these values by free gaps 0,4-0,6 and 0,5-0,6 mm,
so an effective lift of 10-10.2 mm and 9-9.1 mm )

- probably also same pistons,
I don't think some small valve pockets are necessary
to be added in the pistons edges with 10mm lift cams;
more likely they are necessary at 10,5mm or more lift(race setup),
i.e. if some more tuning is added to cams or in reducing RC;

I remember some photos of open carbed boxer engines
with light valves pockets visible in the pistons but they where
maybe about 1.5 carbs being tuned (or 1.7 carbs)

petteri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by petteri »

bobkelso wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:22 pm
Ps.: not sure if I read correctly the image,
valve gaps are so different from correct ones?
Yes, I need to get new shims. The car service / repair guy of the engine has not really cared about valve gaps at all. Too bad that I don't know more history about the engine...
bobkelso wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:22 pm

One interesting document for your topic is this one:

http://alfasprint.extra.hu/pdf/Alfasud_ ... on_Doc.pdf
This was truly good find, thank you for this! I had missed it totally, how it did not even came to my mind to check specification from homologation papers. Anyways, now I need to check the diameter of intake from my car this weekend.

By the way, yesterday I was seeing one rotten Sprint here in Finland, in a hope to find something useful. Unfortunately the car had sit outside many years. Eventhough engine still turned over (!), the camshafts tips which had been in oil pockets, were badly rotten. I suppose that condensation water mix into oil and therefore causes such a nasty phenomena.
It seems that 105hp Sprints in Finland have engine code 30182 - code for Switerland, Sweden and Australian market versions.
Attachments
Sprint_QV_1-5_1987.JPG
Front.JPG
Sprint_EngineCodes.JPG

alfadave
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Difference between 1.5 90hp engine and 1.5 105hp engine?

Post by alfadave »

If you get your valve clearances set correctly, your engine will run very well!

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