And another 4 door series 2

Veesix75
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And another 4 door series 2

Post by Veesix75 »

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfasud/3036 ... SwcLNe78wY

I really like the early basic models.
Last edited by Veesix75 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kegsti66
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Re: And another 5 door series 2

Post by Kegsti66 »

Around 40,000 miles seems to be a mileage Sud's got taken off the road. Mine was at 40,000, a spare engine I bought was also about the same, and I have seen a few projects for sale that always seem to be about the same.

Veesix75
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Re: And another 5 door series 2

Post by Veesix75 »

Average mileage then was 6k to 8k per year ? 40k is 5 to 7 years old = totally rotten mot failure :(

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LooLooSud33Spider
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Re: And another 5 door series 2

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

Thats not a hatchback
Alfasud Ti 1984
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Veesix75
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by Veesix75 »

It’s a boot back ...

alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

........and the OSR sud arch repair panels are still available from carz2 for £12.90 plus post!

Veesix75
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by Veesix75 »

12.50......bargain of the year.

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

Not testing the water, but conducting a bit of info gathering..

How much money would you guys think this would take to restore?

I'm not talking of a DIY job where you just cost the parts, but how much do you estimate the bill would be for someone, like myself, to do a full restoration on?

That would be strip down, weld up the various places where it will have rotted through, new sills inner outer and centre, new floors, wing rails, rear arches in & out, repairs to various places - front & rear panels, 'screen surround, jack points, spare well, bulkhead, under master cylinder - all the usual places.

So back to a bare shell, weeks of welding as most parts would need to be hand made, full glass out doors off .

Sealed, painted, put back together.

This weeks quiz guys, how much in ££££s would it take...
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alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

The simple answer is its impossible to price a job like that.

Would have to be done on a time and materials basis.

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

alfadave wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 pm
The simple answer is its impossible to price a job like that.

Would have to be done on a time and materials basis.
Yes, but nobody would ever commission a start on that job without an estimate, I know you couldn't say it'll be x£s and stick to it. They would ask for, and need a ballpark figure.
I'm just trying to see if anyone could give me an idea on what they would expect to pay, as I often get asked to do cars and go full time. I know what it takes, how long it takes, and how much it costs, just I fear people underestimate how much it would costs when not done on a mates rates scenario.
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I'm bad with people things
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Alfastrut
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by Alfastrut »

A lot more than anyone is willing to pay

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by Alfastrut »

And more than the car would be worth

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

Alfastrut wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:14 pm
A lot more than anyone is willing to pay
And therin lies the crux of the problem.
As much as people say to me go full time there just isn't the customers to make it possible..
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

Alfastrut wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:15 pm
And more than the car would be worth
Ignore that point, I'm trying to see how much people think it really does cost.
What I mean is the restoration cost wouldn't be that much different to this car or a Ti , or any similar car come to that.

Imagine the car was worth £20k done if that helps...how much would anyone estimate it would be to restore a car.
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Lancia Dedra turbo
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I'm bad with people things
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

6-8 grand

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LooLooSud33Spider
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

All I would add Kev is that from time to time We all let our hearts rule our heads and spend More on our cars than they are worth. It just so happens that Suds are Hot property at the Moment With some prices that even us Sud fanatics think is high for “barn finds”. If someone loves a car They want and Are willing to pay to have it repaired properly. Most mainstream body shops don’t seem interested in restoration work as they make so much money from insurance companies. For them it’s all about quantity of work not quality of work. I seem to remember you telling me overheads of your unit are relatively low which is a great start. I’m not going to say you’ll get rich but there is something quite cool about being your own boss but Obviously Any new venture is a risk but life is a risk.
That said life is for living not regretting what might if been
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LooLooSud33Spider
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by LooLooSud33Spider »

I feel that With Suds the Financial viability of restoration is a Bit more complex as you can’t just say “oh I’ll go and find a better one” As there are so few about.
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junior
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by junior »

To answer your question I would expect it to cost 10 to 12 grand to restore a sud if all goes well.

Engine 3 K, Electrics 2 K, bodywork 4 k, and the rest. Mind you counting it up like that feels optimistic already.

And if your paying that kind of money you expect a high standard not a mates one. Tricky.

just look how much it cost to restore some of these Ford Escorts which are in many ways a simpler car.

Two points though. One, I had a good friend who restored vintage exotica and we though he had a great job. Then he told us about the owners and how awful they made it.

Two. In conversation with Ian Ellis of 105 fame he said he stuck with Alfa's for just that reason...they had nice owners you could work with.

Hope that helps your decision making. :?

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by rsfruitbat »

Hi Kev
Having done a few of these what would be the ball park figure do you think of how many hours are involved.
I know when ibuilt the 33 i kept a diary and logged 3500 hrs.
Is that in the ball park.?

If you are doing it as a business much do you want to pay yourself. It's got to be worth your while.
I think it's about finding the right clientele. Always a huge market for mk1 & 2 escorts and people are prepared to pay good money for a sorted shell.

Rsfruitbat

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

I wasn't canvassing opinion on whether to start up as a business, just after peoples ideas on build costs.
I also very much wasn't having a dig or trying to offend anyone that has had a car done by me, or asked to have one done. I humbly appreciate anyone asking me. Just it's been on a very much casual basis up to now as far as timescale and costs are concerned.

If I was to start up in business as my sole source of income, which I'm not, then the costs and demands involved push it up to another level.

Timewise it is hard to put an accurate timescale on, as has already been pointed out. But although you couldn't quote for the work, unless leaving yourself a huge margin for everything to go wrong, you could do an estimate which is what every person would ask for. Nobody in their right mind would drop a car off not asking about costs and just say ring me when it's done.
I've done a few cars now so I figure it would be a minimum of 2 months but could equally be 3 or 4 months, just for strip down welding and paint. When so much needs fabricating by hand it is very easy to use up days where they weren't envisaged, which leads to weeks of extra.

My unit isn't overly expensive to rent as for the size of it, is still over £3k a year though but as it stands I share space with John so costs me half that. If I started full time though I'd need to take the whole space.
Travelling to and fro is another unconsidered cost with it being a 50+ mile round trip, there's another £200 a month just in fuel. Of course I could rent somewhere closer but a workshop of the size needed, comparable to what we have nearby is well over twice the price, so that would end up costing more.
Workshop business insurance for places that have such a high risk, welding and grinding in the same building as paint/thinners is kept, is a huge cost. I was talking to Andy who does restoration full time on the same site with a same size building about this earlier this year, his yearly Insurance bill is over £8.5k! That's over £700 a month....factor that into a car that might be with you for 4 months, with that the only source of income then costs such as that have to be covered on the restoration bill …
The cost of materials to paint a car may surprise some, those in the game wouldn't be so surprised to hear that with the paint, primers, fillers, DA discs, wet & dry paper, masking paper, thinners etc etc I can say that £500 of paint materials per car is probably still conservative, when you add all the silly bits it's crazy. On Tim's car I got a few odds and ends, tub of filler, some stoneguard, PU sealer, roll of paper....not much change from £100 Even stuff like steel, welding gas, aerosol etch primers you still can add a couple hundred more per car..

So lets say it's a 3 month job. From a basket case strip and weld to being in paint, nothing mechanical.

Costs are
£2,100 Insurance
£800 workshop rent
£600 travel costs
£700 materials

That's over £4k in expenses without going through everything, business rates for one example..tax man, book keeping, no holiday pay, no security, the risk that you may have a month or two where people let you down half way though a job, or decide they can't get to you for another fortnight because they're off on holiday first (that one hasn't happened to me, but I know someone who allocated workshop space and had to be near 2 weeks without work due to that..)

You'll also notice I haven't included a wage yet!

With all the risks involved how much money would you need as a wage each month so you had enough buffer to cover all eventualities?

Personally speaking with all the above costs and more that are not listed I wouldn't entertain one as a full time income for less than £10k. Even then you're not going to get rich, so why not take a wage and relax?
And for that cash people would expect more than a man in a lockup without proper workshop facilities or even a paint booth. I haven't got £50k sat idle to set up such a place either, so whichever way you look at things, and I've thought about it from all angles over the last couple of years, it's just not going to add up.

Another guy, Pete, on the same site does 2CV restoration, in many ways a much easier car to do as there are panels available so not so much fabrication needed and being a body off chassis pan like a beetle they are in some ways easier as access is better. He charges between £9k and £12k for them.
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

Thoughts guys?
I won't be offended by anyone's opinion! :D
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Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

Are we presuming the costs you are quoting are for shell work and paint.

If so, the full rebuild will be a lot more?

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

Plenty of restoration companies are still in business.

Recently on the Giulietta Register website there was a 750 Sprint for sale.
The owner had passed away.
He had spent £40k plus on the shell.....which still needed finishing!

It all depends on how much people are prepared to pay.

I've always thought of Suds as cheap but fairly fast cars.

But that is slowly changing as we've seen recently.

Car and Classic has a TiX on for £10k.

And look at how Escorts have shot up in price.

The buyers are older guys with money, who had one in their youth, and now want a nicely restored one.

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by NEG »

I guess it depends if you want to do full restorations or part. The guys doing my GTV6 do a lot of classic servicing and repair work, they have very few full restorations on the go, currently an alfa 2600 spider nut and bolt ground up restore, my GTV6 part resto and one other. All the other work is short term to keep the cash moving. They also asked for staged payments on my GTV6 during the resto.

I have a mate who also runs a classic car restoration business (2 man workshop) and he only ever has one full restoration in at any one time, the rest is servicing and repair.

Which means if they get swamped with regular work the restoration is put on the back burner, the owners are made fully aware...

alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

Maybe another idea is part ownership.
My Insurers Footman James allow up to 5 drivers on their policy.....and as many cars as you want it seems.

So, get 4 people who you know and trust on your insurance, and share the cost.

Thats what I've done!

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

alfadave wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:52 pm
Are we presuming the costs you are quoting are for shell work and paint.

If so, the full rebuild will be a lot more?
The 10k estimate would be to strip a car down to a shell, weld it and paint it then put back together.
As I said the costs to me to do that for 3 months if done as a business are over 4k, so as a wage that 10k pays less than 2k a month, in actual fact it would be nearer £1,5k a month with all the costs not listed.

The point of my post was to highlight that "why don't you go fulltime" is way less profitable than it may seem.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

alfadave wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:36 pm
Maybe another idea is part ownership.
My Insurers Footman James allow up to 5 drivers on their policy.....and as many cars as you want it seems.

So, get 4 people who you know and trust on your insurance, and share the cost.

Thats what I've done!
:?:

The Insurance I was on about is business insurance, that you would need if going into business.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by NEG »

Kev, I think you are greatly underestimating, that 10k should be closer to 20k

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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

NEG wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:23 pm
Kev, I think you are greatly underestimating, that 10k should be closer to 20k
I know mate, that is what I'm saying, 10k for a 3 month sud weld & paint wouldn't pay me a living but who would pay a man in the shed £20k..

I am just pointing out why I won't be starting up in business, as much as it'd be nice.

Once you get into charging a proper rate then the customer expectation goes up with it.

Unless any of you guys are bringing me a car, don't really care what it is, a Sud Sierra or Serona, with a 20k budget it's a non starter..
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Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
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alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

Kev, I realised you were talking about business insurance,

The point I was making is the cost of a resto would be much more bearable if shared out.

People who have boats have syndicates with shared ownership.

Why not classic cars?

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