And another 4 door series 2

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

I think there's a bit of confusion still. Probably due to me using this thread of a car for sale to get my point made, should have started a different one.

What I'm trying to say is that I get asked aot to do this car or that car, for which as I am doing it in my spare time as I work full time elsewhere its not possible to do many. At the moment they ha e been relatively cheap restorations because I haven't been relying on it to earn a living, I've picked the projects that interested me enough from the car being of interest, Richards Fulvia saloon for example, or the deal was a nice one for all, as in with Tim where he gets his car done and I get his track prepped clio, everyone wins.

The point I was trying to convey was that if I took the leap and did these cars full time then the costs and therefore bills would get much more real. As I would be then relying on it as an income then it would be a for profit basis rather than just covering costs and doing jobs that interested me.

The insurance was an example that I would have to be paying near £10,000 a year to cover the eventuality of theft/fire/damage of any customers cars or indeed the loss of the building/business. That would be a cost to me which would need to be factored into any jobs done, likewise the monthly costs to me of rent and travel etc would need to be covered by the work being done, based on how long the car was being worked on.

Whether the car (or whatever it is) belongs to one or a hundred people would make no difference to me as a business owner, it wouldn't drop my overheads any.

The bill for a restoration can only be based on what it costs the business owner to carry out the work which of course includes all the overheads plus making a living from it.

I used the example of this sud to point out that if I went full time then I estimate 3 months of 40 hour weeks isn't unreal to assume needed to take the car apart back to a completely bare shell, weld repair any and all areas rather than skim over the visual parts then paint it all in the way I do. You then have the task of rebuilding the whole car. Doing it as a sole source of income I said I wouldn't take it on for less than £10,000 which I think on reflection would pay me below minimum wage because of the costs listed, which are in no way a full list which is bound to expand. Price up all the little fasteners that get replaced, nuts and bolts, sealants, weld materials, primers. The list of consumables you get through is endless, all needs paying for.

As has already been said to make a living from it and to allow time to do it thoroughly it would need to be way more money, which prices me out of the job as if you were spending 15 to 20k on this car you'd expect to have better facilities like a spray booth for example.
Don't also get hooked up on it being silly to spend that money on a sud worth less than the build costs, the price would be very similar if I was to do an integrale in the same way. OK the costs would be slightly more due to the complexity of the car in stripping and rebuilding, but the time taken on welding and painting is not that different if it's a sud, an integrale, a marina ;) or a 105 GTV. Metal is metal.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

alfadave wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am
Kev, I realised you were talking about business insurance,

The point I was making is the cost of a resto would be much more bearable if shared out.

People who have boats have syndicates with shared ownership.

Why not classic cars?
But I was talking about business insurance costs from the point of view of the restorer.. not the car owner..
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

NEG
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by NEG »

And there I was thinking of asking you to finish and paint my GTV6! :D :D :D :?

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

NEG wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:10 pm
And there I was thinking of asking you to finish and paint my GTV6! :D :D :D :?
:lol: There is a list growing of people asking me the same thing mate...maybe time to reconsider !

but the need to earn a living keeps getting in the way :D
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

justsuds
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by justsuds »

It's a big step to take Kev, - but as an outsider looking in - if you understand what I mean - I don't think you would ever look back, I am frequently asked to recommend someone who does what you do, and I can't recommend anyone, good people, regardless of job or trade are hard to find, and someone who is thorough, and honest, and who does a good job is rare. A lot of my customers don't want a full resto, but want some of the work done, and will do some themselves, so you may not, typically, be looking at £10 - £20k jobs, but a larger number of smaller jobs. Set an hourly rate, and tell customers that is what it is and make sure you bill for every hour, - you can estimate how many hours are in a job, but stress it is an estimate, and it may vary, Tims' Sud is a good example, look what happens when you get busy with the wire wheel !
Without bullsh**ing I could and would recommend people to you, - I have two cars here you could start on straight away !
A bit of maths may ( or may not ! ) help, - a reasonable rate to me would be £40 / hour, 40 hour week, 46 week working year, - 2 weeks off at Christmas, 2 in the summer, and 2 other weeks as and when, equals a labour turnover of £73,600, plus a reasonable margin on materials too, means you could possibly stay out of VAT registration.
I don't think you would be twiddling your thumbs !
Food for thought, good luck !
Cheers, John.

junior
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by junior »

I think John could be right as the Lancia bloke over here is struggling to find anyone to do intergrales. I think he has several needing work.

I am also certain if I took off the wings of my car and had a look the standard of workmanship that was done for me would be far below your efforts. :?

So best leave that alone for now. :lol:

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

justsuds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:39 pm
It's a big step to take Kev, - but as an outsider looking in - if you understand what I mean - I don't think you would ever look back, I am frequently asked to recommend someone who does what you do, and I can't recommend anyone, good people, regardless of job or trade are hard to find, and someone who is thorough, and honest, and who does a good job is rare. A lot of my customers don't want a full resto, but want some of the work done, and will do some themselves, so you may not, typically, be looking at £10 - £20k jobs, but a larger number of smaller jobs. Set an hourly rate, and tell customers that is what it is and make sure you bill for every hour, - you can estimate how many hours are in a job, but stress it is an estimate, and it may vary, Tims' Sud is a good example, look what happens when you get busy with the wire wheel !
Without bullsh**ing I could and would recommend people to you, - I have two cars here you could start on straight away !
A bit of maths may ( or may not ! ) help, - a reasonable rate to me would be £40 / hour, 40 hour week, 46 week working year, - 2 weeks off at Christmas, 2 in the summer, and 2 other weeks as and when, equals a labour turnover of £73,600, plus a reasonable margin on materials too, means you could possibly stay out of VAT registration.
I don't think you would be twiddling your thumbs !
Food for thought, good luck !
Cheers, John.

Guess you are right John, smaller jobs rather than having lengthy stayers. Does seem to be a shortage of places willing to do welding, I think what I've found out about Insurance costs has something to do with it but equally Garages don't seem to want the hassle of it, much easier and simpler to fit a set of brake pads than do some welding.
Is that hourly rate achievable you think, you know me and my place, not the last word in facilities but good enough for me. Also I like the idea of a rate that includes the consumable parts rather than having to try and work out what you've spent in this and that, slitting discs and stuff. Welding gas as I'm sure you know is an odd one to charge for, one job may get done on the bottle you have then the next job you need a refill, so who gets charged! Inclusive of minor consumables seems a good plan.
If that hourly rate was deemed to be reasonable it would be a decent living, better than what I get now that's for sure!
Food for thought..

And again, I do appreciate your kind words 8-)
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

junior wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:36 pm
I think John could be right as the Lancia bloke over here is struggling to find anyone to do intergrales. I think he has several needing work.

I am also certain if I took off the wings of my car and had a look the standard of workmanship that was done for me would be far below your efforts. :?

So best leave that alone for now. :lol:
Is that the place out Bradford way?
Although given my memory it could have been anywhere!
Someone did ring me a while back asking if I could weld an integrale for them but timescale didn't fit, said they wanted a proper job done not an "MoT weld up" as seems to happen when folks are time pressured. Know how that works, had it at the VW place, hardly got time to do a rough job let alone a good job, hated that pressure. Happier working on my own at ,my own pace, not as quick as some but I like to think it's done fairly thoroughly. I can't see sense in doing things in such a way that they will need doing again in 5 years, not when you've gone to the effort to start the job.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

justsuds
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by justsuds »

Talking about my fabrication business, rather than Justsuds, the situation seems to have changed over probably the last five or so years. Whereas previously in most places there would be a few small fabrication workshops for customers to choose from, a lot have now packed up for whatever reason, possibly age - most guys I know doing this job are 50 +, where are the youngsters ?, but also costs, health and safety, employment regulations etc. I've noticed that now when it comes to work the first question that used to be asked was "how much to do this ?", now it's "can you do this ?" because the choice there was isn't there. This is probably the case with what you do Kev, people I've used in the past have retired, there isn't new business's replacing them, I genuinely think you would be in demand ! - and yesterday when I said I had two cars you could have straight away I was wrong, - I actually have four !
Your labour rate would have to be such that it covered sundry materials such as gas, sanding disc etc as you mentioned, and obviously rent, rates - though small business rate relief should mean that you don't pay rates - heating etc, but parts, paint, etc should be added. The rate I mentioned is realistic, possibly even low. You are in a good situation in that you have premises, equipment, a track record, - could you start gently by going part time at work ? and split your time, - your current employer may rather have you part time than not at all !
I do realise that this is a big step, cheers, John.

NEG
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by NEG »

That Hourly rate is a little low in my experience, it tends to be £45~£60 for most classic work....

junior
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by junior »

KevJTD wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:07 pm
junior wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:36 pm
I think John could be right as the Lancia bloke over here is struggling to find anyone to do intergrales. I think he has several needing work.

I am also certain if I took off the wings of my car and had a look the standard of workmanship that was done for me would be far below your efforts. :?

So best leave that alone for now. :lol:
Is that the place out Bradford way?
Although given my memory it could have been anywhere!
Someone did ring me a while back asking if I could weld an integrale for them but timescale didn't fit, said they wanted a proper job done not an "MoT weld up" as seems to happen when folks are time pressured. Know how that works, had it at the VW place, hardly got time to do a rough job let alone a good job, hated that pressure. Happier working on my own at ,my own pace, not as quick as some but I like to think it's done fairly thoroughly. I can't see sense in doing things in such a way that they will need doing again in 5 years, not when you've gone to the effort to start the job.
No, the place is at Ludlow. Following on from what John has said, all these trades are missing skilled people as the colleges have stopped running courses or they are at such a low skill level its embarrassing. My tree surgery students used to do a bit of welding as part of the course as it would be useful for them when stuff broke, but mainly so they could judge if the job they had done was a good one. Then the agriculture mechanics did welding and there were courses in the evening.
Now the college has no welding booth's. All to save money. It all went to the Uni's. The skill level in my trade is now very low and many others in my experience are the same. How Boris is going to build i do not know ! :?

alfadave
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by alfadave »

If you set up as an Integrale Bodywork Specialist, you would have a waiting list of customers in a short time.

An ex Integrale owner here says it was hard to find anyone.

If they felt uncomfortable with no paint booth, maybe you could contract the paintwork out.

Or use someone elses booth by arrangement?

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KevJTD
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by KevJTD »

I've no problem spraying without a purpose booth, putting the paint on is the most enjoyable part of the build, just people would expect it. There is another guy on the site with a booth so I guess I could weld and get to primer then get him to paint if that made the difference.
We'll see how things pan out over the next few weeks, back at work next week.....not sure how that will go down after 2 months off...could tip me over the edge and into the promised land :lol:
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

SAS southernalfasuds
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by SAS southernalfasuds »

Hello Kev, I think, that if you did ever decide to join the ranks of the self-employed you'd consider it the best thing you had ever done. Some wise words have already been said, but with experience, you'll find the best places to use for your materials, consumables and trade costs. As far as work goes, there will be ups and downs. Reputation is everything. Have a good name and you won't need to advertise, your work will do it for you. If you're happy to do other cars as well as rusty old 'suds then I think you'll find plenty for just one man. There are people out there that can't even pick up a spanner and have the money to pay someone to do it for them. There are also those that can and will want to do some of the work themselves. You will make new contacts as time goes by. I don't know what you do for work at the moment, but you can't beat being your own boss. It seems most in the motor trade charge an hourly rate and that would be the way to go. Not everyone can do what you do, and so I think would carry a fair premium over fellas changing brakes, tyres and exhausts. Like others on here I've always been self-employed and wouldn't have it any other way. Anyway, if you're paye you might find that the decision to make comes along sooner rather than later once the furlough money stops. I hope not, but who knows? Best of luck, Matt

junior
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Re: And another 4 door series 2

Post by junior »

The other big things that people are avoiding mentioning as it is much more personal, but which I have seen fail many

a tree surgery business is can you say 'NO' to jobs that will just not pay ?

Can you be diligent about receipts, money flow and the tax year ?

Will working alone get to you in the long term ? That is surmising you do not do that now.

Lastly, but possibly the most important is how high is your idiot tolerance ? They will turn up . :lol:

Good luck.

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