Alfa 33 1400 16V Rallycar

[AlfaCorseChris]

Mate, sounds to me that you have a very very small leak, and thats why you cant find it.

Is there a way to completely drain the system and to a smoke check on it ?

[KevJTD]

overheating fluid usually occurs at the calipers, red hot pads sitting against hot discs parked still causes very localised fluid boiling in the calipers.
issue we used to have on single venues where you come striaght off the stage, into a time control then into the service area all within a minute and no distance at all so discs & pads don't get chance to cool off.
going the long way back to your service spot may help a bit, with no use of the brakes.
with the set-up you've now got you are getting a lot of heat build up, a lot more than with standard stuff, the heat needs somewhere to go.
could you rig up a small computer fan that will blow air down some ducting pipe for when you park up?
a simple little fan mounted near the engine/gearbox mount with a bit of ducting pipe down to each caliper (you are still running inboards mate?) should help stop fine air bubbles forming in the calipers between stages.

simple question that may help confirm this, does the problem occur on mulit-venues when you get a chance for things to cool down on the road stage without the heat building up whilst static?

heat build up when stationary in brakes is a common issue, hence the hair dryers that F1 use

[rsfruitbat]

Hi Kev

Thanks for input
We are using Castrol SRF. Problem has been happening for about a year i suppose. From memory problem occurs on both single and multi venue events.
I dont think its the fluid because the situation gets worse even if the car is sat doing nothing. Caerwent is at the end of March. Car got parked up and was not started or moved until Friday. Pedal had gone from about an inch of movement to about 3 inch with the car having done nothing. this is where I am getting stumped. Gut feeling is to change the servo and master cylinder and try again.
Any more thoughts?

rsfruitbat

[Veesix75]

Could fluid be finding its way past the master cylinder seals? Would have thought using the brakes would cause that, not while stood but you never know.

[KevJTD]

decent fluid then mate, should be pretty resistant to boiling/foaming but nothing is totally foolproof - just look at the lengths that the works cars go to with water cooled calipers and water sprays..

anyway, here's a suggestion if you've got the time before the next event.

can you bleed the brakes now, this week anyway, whilst the cars is not in use. bleed them to get a solid pedal and then don't use it at all, leave it until you next need it.
if you still have a solid pedal aftera few weeks or more of being stodd idle then at least it will rule out a creeping master cylinder/seals..

i still think it's your increased pace that's causing issues

be keen to know tom or bryan's thoughts on this with them having many years experience of inboard sud brake use, on stage and circuit

cracking result though mate, really good. 2nd in class is a mighty effort as i know that you will have folks who spend many more thousands on cars in your class, on engines alone. well done mate

[AlfaCorseChris]

Well a very easy way to check, is to remove the master brake cylinder and look inside the servo for fluid.

By the way... if you leave the car standing for a few days, does the fluid go down at all ?

[rsfruitbat]

Hi All
There appears to be no fluid loss. I certainly cant find any. Servo is remotely mounted from the master cylinder. It could be the servo???

One other thing, when I started bleeding the brakes on Saturday no air came through for a while. When it started coming through it was mainly fine bubbles. If you pumped and then held the pedal down it was almost like a froth that came out. Seemed a bit wierd but tried it several times and it always followed that pattern.

rsfruitbat

[KevJTD]

Well a very easy way to check, is to remove the master brake cylinder and look inside the servo for fluid.

By the way... if you leave the car standing for a few days, does the fluid go down at all ?

but that only covers if the fluid is leaking out of the master cylinder. if the seals have worn and it's leaking past the seals back into the chamber, which gives a soft pedal, then you'd get no fluid loss. like the seals let fluid past instead of compressing it down into the pipes so it just stays within the master cylinder.
had that happen before.

[AlfaCorseChris]

True, but worth checking.

From what I understand, if you get no air to begin with when started bleeding, and you get some at the end, then the air bubbles must be in the beginning of the system.

Go for your master cylinder first. At least take it off and have it checked for pressure loss

[rsfruitbat]

Master cylinder is one of the cheapest items so that will get replaced first I think.
Its not that old but it is a brand I havent used before.

Will keep you informed.

rsfruitbat

[rsfruitbat]

Hi all

Brakes are sort of sorted now.
Lesson 1 - dont buy cheap brands of master cylinder.

Now feels like they are dragging a bit so still some work to do but at least there is a pedal there now when you go for it.

We are planning our annual pilgrimage to Rockingham in a couple of weeks. Dec 5th and 6th if anyone wants to come and look at a rally from the comfort of the nice warm grandstand with a pint in hand and a meal in front of you. Same as normal with night stages on the early saturday evening.
Best venue I know of for watching a rally.

All the best rsfruitbat

[rob_mitch]

Photo in MotorSport News this week?

[rsfruitbat]

I doubt very much to be honest.

47 O/A and 5th in class. OK result.

Enjoyed the day but not brave enough when it came to the very fast chicanes. Approaching a tyre wall / chicane at speeds of 70+ and not being able to see a way through until the last minute unnerves me. I dont think it has helped only doing 4 events this year. The more you do the greater your confidence in what will happen in certain conditions. I am not a natural driver so I have to work at what speed i can get out of car. It would be very interesting to put a more accomplished driver in and see what results they could get!

On the circuit stuff we were holding our own and overtook quite a few cars.

Overall very enjoyable event again. Planning to do it again next year.
Before that i think the car and engine deserves a bit of TLC.

rsfruitbat

[Veesix75]

Good result, well done.

[rob_mitch]

White 33, number 74, says photo taken on Rockingham Stages

[rsfruitbat]

You are right Rob

I didnt know about it until my wife told me about it.

Thats us

Thanks Veesix. It was that warm I ws running on your tyres for a few stages!!!

rafruitbat

[rsfruitbat]

Well the engine got its TLC, complete strip and rebuild and guess what?

Less power than before. 117BHP at the flywheel, 79bhp at the wheels .

Seriously thinking of baling out of this 16V route.
Most power was on wildest cams but not a huge amount of difference from standard cams to ridiculous (BDA profile for a 2l engine) (15BHP)

I was advised that the exhaust on a 1700 is too big (42mm) for a 1400 (38mm more appropriate). Does that mean that the throats in the heads are also too large so i have a fundamental problem with what I am trying to do?

Looking into centring the injector ports (they are offset by about 10mm), wilder cams (more lift & or duration), increasing CR (currently 11 maybe go to 13?), bespoke exhaust manifold ( currently running a bastardised creation fabricated from various bits), none of which will be cheap. None of which will guarantee any improvements.

Yep. should have guessed it. Friday the 13th. just about says it all.

any advice / sympathy appreciated

rsfruitbat

[Veesix75]

I think I used a 38mm on both my lower spec 1500 and 1700, but the manifolds on the current 1500 is fairly big, at least 42 or more. I'm more top end though I guess.

I don't know enough about cams and CR, and 117bhp isn't terrible, but I suppose you'd expect more like 125 to 130?

Maybe Simon can offer some comparison with his 1300 trofeo.

[rsfruitbat]

Hi veesix.

From what i have found out you may gain more power and torque by dropping your manifold size. Several examples of people doing this on the internet. Bigger isnt necessarily best.
A top spec engine in my class would be 190ish BHP. There is a mkII escort with a Wankel engine producing 215BHP.
150 - 160 is common place.
If i did all the things on that list I would probably be spending more than someone who can buy a vauxhall engine producing 150, but i have no guarantees of getting even close to that.
I just want to find out where i would be better off spending my money.

My target is at a minimum 100BHP / litre so 140 for my 1400.

What did your engines produce?
Do you know how much transmission loss you got? Whats right for a boxer? I have about 30%.

Thanks for your thoughts

rsfruitbat

[BS25]

RS,

I think the issue you have is that no-one else has done a small capacity 16v so maybe it's down to everything standard (valves, ports, etc) being designed for a 1.7 (and later used on a 1.6). You have ploughed somewhat of a lone furrow with the downsizing route so any information relating to the larger capacity engines is relatively anecdotal. Added to this there is the usual realistic v optimistic rolling road numbers - unless everyone uses the same rolling road then comparison is a little tricky.

In terms of 16v, our initial engine was 1700cc and with full race heads, big inlet and exhaust valves, full race cams, etc, etc. produced 205bhp at 8100. Going up to 1950cc with the same head/cam hardware saw an increase to 245 bhp. Our old 1800 8v - again full race but not steel crank gave 175bhp - as documented elsewhere the heads alone cost £2000 (in 1999) - so it was about as good as they get without steel crank revs. Ted's engine will be similar but I suspect a little less as the heads were not as good.

Your 117bhp isn't big power but, what did a 1351cc 8v start off with - 86ps? Given the true number will have been much nearer 80ps thats a gain of circa 37bhp - not bad for a small capacity engine. These aren't easy engines to get cheap power gains out of and many will actually be disappointed with the real number - but not disappointed with the way they go . If you take my 245bhp - the cost of that over the years is unavoidably large - a standard secondhand 3.2 V6 can be found for fractions and have the same power. My Fiesta ST with it's Ecoboost 1.6 has got 180ps - slightly more than the 1800 full race 8v - crazy when the ST is so docile, fuel efficient, etc, etc. If you are down on power on the same rolling road following your recent spruce up then that's different of course.

30% losses on the rolling road sound a little high but I will have to look back at previous records to refresh my memory.

[rsfruitbat]

Hi BS thanks for yur advice and comments.

What do you think is a realistic figure for my little 1400?

All the figures I quote are from the same rolling road, same operator. Only thing that has differed over time is the tyres.

everything is telling me that 16V should be the way to go. but if the basic tools I am working with are OTT i am on a hiding too nothing. Same as you I am just a clubman. I dont have the money or the time to go through an extennsive developement program to see which knob i need to twist. 7 yrs down the line and i have less power, maybe more torque than i had at the start.
Having gone through a range of cam profiles without huge differences is what makes me think that the fundamental concept is wrong.
when you went from 1700 to 1900 was the only change the cc's?
if it was then for 200cc you got 40BHP. So 100cc equals 20BHP???
If you work that back the other way as a roughguide then does that suggest that 145 should be my target?
If you apply that theory to the 8V then if i would be looking at 95BHP? less power than now?

I am running a staright cut 4.1:1 gearbox with a Quaiffe diff and a single plate paddle clutch.

Really do appreciate everyones help and advice with this dilemma.

rsfruitbat
Do you use standard throttle bodies? have you any experience of centring the injectors?

[PETROLHEAD]

Just talking from the exhaust point of view you touched upon earlier Ade, i wouldnt use any larger primaries than 38mm/1.5" for a na 1400.

Too big too soon will simply run cool losing gas speed and scavenge.

All the inlet improvement in the world can be significantly undone with the wrong exhaust, and vice versa of course, but whether it could be pointed and sneered at as the culprit for your current disappointment is very hard to quantify.

My take on it would be that it wouldn't be helping matters, but would replacing that alone get you to where you want to be???

I'm sure it would help, but only doing it would reveal by how much I'm afraid.

Shrew

[rsfruitbat]

Hi Shrew

Thanks for your thoughts. Shrew, I have sent you another pm today. Dont know if you got my others on Friday?

I very much doubt whether the exhaust is the root of all my evils but it would be nice to at least start crossing things off the list of culprits. As both you and BS have said there are many unknowns with my engine...

Exhaust and centred injectors are probably the quickest and cheapest to try whilst I decide on whether to go for the rest of the package, increased CR, wilder cams (more lift / duration)etc. I am trying to remember who I sold my original cams to. It was someone in holland I am pretty sure. They are just about the only things I have sold!

BS has made me reconsider if an 8V would deliver any improvements over what I have now.

No need to rush and do anything rash at the moment.

Thanks for advice guys RSfruitbat

[rsfruitbat]

Still exploring what options i have to sort out my "opportunities".
Motorsport doesnt stand still though and we put an entry in for an event at Down Ampney nr Cirencester which was yesterday.

We may only have 79 horses but they all appeared to be pulling together in whatever direction we happened to be pointing yesterday.
Its an old airfieild venue so surface is concrete until it see any water at which point it appears to turn into a mixture between ice, oil, melted butter and finally banana skins. As you can guess we were hoping for rain (last event we did there in the wet we got up to 12th O/A before it dried out).
Chucked it down with rain all night and stopped about 4:30. By the time we got there the venue was bone dry. Bu66er!

Based on our conversation on the handling, we started off with rear pressures higher, 26, Hankook supersoft slicks on the front and Yoky softs on the rear. Car was handling better with a bit of movement from the rear. Left the rear pressures at what they had warmed up to (30) and dropped the fronts down to 28. Caught and passed a Yaris on the first stage and a peugeot on the second.

For the next stages we went to Hankook softs and yoky mediums on the back, same tyre pressures. What a transformation. Car handled like a dream. We got overtaken by an impreza coming into a complex called the horseshoe (3 guesses as to why). We managed to be right up the imprezas chuf until we pulled onto straight at which point he dissappeared into the distance. As the day went on we continued to catch and pass the cars in front (V8 TR7 did elude us!)
As the day got hotter changed the fronts to harder compounds but hadnt actualy got hards which we could probably have done with for the last pair of stages. Kept praying for the rain to arrive but unfortunately it didnt.
However...
We started at car 59 out of 85 with 9 cars in my class. Finishing position was 27th O/A and second in class. Chuffed to bits with that result.

Going to have a break for a couple of months now and see if i can get a few of these issues sorted out. Next planned event is at a venue called Throckmorton in August.

Thanks for help and guidance through the "dark days"

All the best rsfruitbat

[Veesix75]

Great result ...well done.

[bobkelso]

Hi rsfruitbat,
I read your posts about the experimental 1400 16v boxer,
I think you did a great job and effort building a "modern spec" engine,
it is possible some of missing HP are actually near to be finded,
i.e may be you have already done the 90% of the work?

About diameter of exaust port on the heads, you know the correct
diameter it depends more on maximum power (=maximum air
flow= displacement x revs x filling factor) than on displacement itself:
- if you are hunting for 130-135 HP the actual port diameter
should be quite correct (after tuning of every other component)
because alfa calculated it for about that power,
- if you are hunting for 115 HP, probably (?) a smaller port will gave about
the same max power but more torque ad mid rev (= more real speed on real drive)

About diameter of exaust, I don't know, it is possible you are right 42mm
to be excessive or not, it depends on many things, here I don't add a word.

About CR and camshaft there is a question i'd like ask you,
did you already have adjustable cam pulleys on your engine?
(sorry if you write it and have already experimented what
I'm adding below and I missed this information)

It seams that standard or race camshafts need to be phased
differently (doing some attempts with "in" camshaft and "out" camshaft)
in every not standard engine are they used; if you don't find a good phase
it could gave catastrofic results (for example 10 HP missing
or race camshafts doing a worst job than a standard ones).
Because your engine with 1700 head and 1400 displacent is surely not
standard, the phase for the camshafts should be probably customised.

For example the "geometic" CR you calculated of 11:1 is
different from the "real" CR; real CR depend on when valves are opening and
when the valves are closing (greatly affecting the filling factor)
so depends on camshafts phase, so every particular camshaft arrangement/phase
need a particular geometrical CR to produce the best real CR and
use best ignition time..

In practice is more easy set a geometrical CR and with it fixed
try every different phase arrangement than do the opposite..
So geometric CR of 11:1 could be right or wrong it depend on valve phase,
before you change it to 11.5 or 12 (for example to compensate a race camshaft
that produce a lower real CR) it would be nice try some different camshaft
phases to be sure not missing some good configuration at 11:1 ?

PS.: I don't remember, at what rev you have the maximun power
and if is you are using hydraulic tappets or the expensive race
conversion mechanical tappets?
You know, hydraulic tappets have more friction (some few HP missing)
and more over after 7000rpm they tend not follow exactly the cam contour,
(some other few hp missing respect mechanical ones);
using upgraded tappets coils is more safe but also gave more friction,
ideal should be, if using hydraulic tappets, find a recent compatible
hydraulic tappet that is more light than the original from alfa
(some users found lighter tappets from modern vw engine
compatible for use in 8v boxer and that should be efficient at 7500rpm,
in 8v boxer hydraulic tappets and valves are bigger so heavier and the problem
is more evident, but may be a similar upgrade it is possible also for 16V boxer? ).

[rsfruitbat]

Hi Bob
Thanks for your detailed reply.

I had just written a lengthy reply to your points which i managed to delete by accident.

Heres the short version:
originally had 300 duration cams with mechanical tappets and adj. sprockets. Only small gains when adjusting cam timing. 132bhp
next we fitted std cams with hydraulic tappets. heads were changed to ones that had been "cleaned up" but not flowed. small power loss but better torque. changing cam timing didnt help.
After this we fitted catcams 1031012 having 275 duration. no power increase but a little more torque. Std pulleys as adj. were cracking
Last thing we did was to fit a smaller bore exhaust manifold and std inlet air box. small drop in bhp better torque.

Next move is to decide about the exhaust, try and get hold of my original cams, see about centring the injectors.

if all that shows improvements then i suspect we would look at a cam with more lift and that would mean new pistons.

Thanks for your advice

rsfruitbat

[rsfruitbat]

Hi everyone

Thought I would give you all an update of what we have been doing lately.

So last weekend we competed on a rally at an old airfield near Throckmorton in Worcestershire.
Started at 41 out of 75 with 11 in our class, finished 29th and 4th in class. Reasonable result.

Engine is working much better after another trip to the rollers where Dave worked on the breathing and got power improvements out of her of about 10% a chuink of this by going back to trumpets.

We reckion the next simplest thing to do is go for the vernier cam pulleys. I know there was a group buy on the other forum from a company called Gozzoli? If anyone has some and wants to sell then give me a shout.

Next will be cams. Managed to track down my original set but the gent who has them now doesnt want to sell unfortunately. So the question is do i get copies made or buy another pattern with more lift perhaps but that might mean new pistons?

Handling was a bit up and down and Throckmorton. No where near as bad as at LLanbedr but nowhere near as good as at Down Ampney. Need to do more work on this area. If i can get the car handling the way i want its easier to drive and we are noticably quicker.

Next event we are planning to be at is Rallyday which is at Castle Combe nr Bath towards the end of September. Apparently we have tickets for unlimited track time so if anyone can make it come and say hello as theres a chance i could take you out for a lap two

All the best RSFruitbat

[rsfruitbat]

Just a heads up for anyone who is interested, we are at Builth Wells showground on Saturday 5th November. Event is based around the dirt car parks on what they call Stockmans Hill. Twist to this event is that the surface is loose but you ae not allowed to use forestry tyres. Last 2 stages are in the dark aswell.
If anyone makes it over then come and say hello. We are running car 46.

rsfruitbat

[Johnboy]

Good luck adie