Classic Alfa Forums

I'm not sure how this keeps happening, I sell some projects but then more appear. I think I may have a problem. But something(s) need to go and I need to get a grip . I have an Ae86 historic rally car. While I can appreciate the engineering, I don't enjoy driving it very much or even looking at it. I have put in a type 9 gearbox and have a tarmac rally next month, which will be its last chance to change my mind. A 1968 Giulia which I am preparing with a friend on a very tight budget. This is more about the journey than the destination, I might just sell my half to him when we are finished but given how much work we are putting in, I don't know. I have the unfinished 16v Sud that hasn't been touched in 2 years but is close to being finished. The Z4M GT4 nearly finished but held up by Covid. The Alfa 155 BTCC Super Tourer unstarted project. And now I have a Fiat Strada Abarth 130tc. This is an ex Group A race car currently a road car that I plan to return to group A spec. I really need to get this list down to two. I cant afford all these cars and I need to start moving some on and enjoying what's left. But what to do? What stays and what goes? First world problems I know but thought I would start a poll for fun. Also PM if interested in any

Much as the z4 would be epic with the M3 straight 6, I’d try and go with the sud and Tarquini.

However if push came to shove then the Sud and the z4, bit of modern racing in the zed and classic in the sud.

Suspect tarquini needs a lot of work but with the U.K. Dunlop series you might get a decent amount for it as it stands for someone else to build up if you did sell.

Tough one as my 3 choices are here in the U.K.

You should get a good return on the Toyota, prices have gone upwards in th U.K. so assume the same in oz?

Veesix75 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:57 pm

Much as the z4 would be epic with the M3 straight 6, I’d try and go with the sud and Tarquini.

However if push came to shove then the Sud and the z4, bit of modern racing in the zed and classic in the sud.

Suspect tarquini needs a lot of work but with the U.K. Dunlop series you might get a decent amount for it as it stands for someone else to build up if you did sell.

Tough one as my 3 choices are here in the U.K.

You should get a good return on the Toyota, prices have gone upwards in th U.K. so assume the same in oz?

I'm kind of leaning towards the Abarth and the Z4. Both have history. My head tells me to sell the Sud but I would like to race a Sud again and it would be epic. The Toyota definitely has one foot out the door.

Hmmm......thing is Gary I’ve seen the Sud numerous times, in fact I’ve touched it numerous times

I’d hang on to the sud and the z4. Imagine the sight and sound of that sud at 8000rpm, awesome.

I like the fiat but not more than a sud.

However it’s what you want, not what I would want.

Over many years with many motorbikes I realised that the ones I got the most fun out of were the ones that could be used in the broadest range.

So it depends on how you set the Gulia up as to how much fun it would be. An the Arbarth the same I guess.

So one with broad focus and one with a narrow one would be my choices.

junior wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:43 pm

Over many years with many motorbikes I realised that the ones I got the most fun out of were the ones that could be used in the broadest range.

So it depends on how you set the Gulia up as to how much fun it would be. An the Arbarth the same I guess.

So one with broad focus and one with a narrow one would be my choices.

This my thinking. Also the Sud needs to be trailered everywhere.

Do you have a preference between FWD and RWD?
Do you have a preference between rallying and racing?
Which is more important being competitive or having fun?
How quickly do you want to be using them?
How much do you want to spend?

For me i prefer FWD, rallying and knowing I've driven to the best of my abilities whether I end up first or last. I would like to do an event this weekend without Having to spenders prepping the car and by the way my trousers have no pockets (unless I find something really shiny, know what I mean).
Having seen your Sud that would have to be one of them. With an extra seat it could be an easy conversion and used for tarmac rallying?
I like the thought of the 130TC but I think the 155 would be easier to run and maintain for pure racing. With its history it could be more likely to hold its value?
I can remember CCC doing an article the 130TC and there view was it was an homologation special for rallying. I think it would be eligible for historic events by now.

I am fairly sure my ramblings will be of no use to you at all and I'm sorry to have wasted your time.
However it has enabled me to generate a few fantasies that could keep me going for a while

On a more serious note if you can narrow down what you want to do it will be easier to refreshing of the portfolio is the best fit.

Good luck. Rsfruitbat

rsfruitbat wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:10 pm

Do you have a preference between FWD and RWD?
Do you have a preference between rallying and racing?
Which is more important being competitive or having fun?
How quickly do you want to be using them?
How much do you want to spend?

For me i prefer FWD, rallying and knowing I've driven to the best of my abilities whether I end up first or last. I would like to do an event this weekend without Having to spenders prepping the car and by the way my trousers have no pockets (unless I find something really shiny, know what I mean).
Having seen your Sud that would have to be one of them. With an extra seat it could be an easy conversion and used for tarmac rallying?
I like the thought of the 130TC but I think the 155 would be easier to run and maintain for pure racing. With its history it could be more likely to hold its value?
I can remember CCC doing an article the 130TC and there view was it was an homologation special for rallying. I think it would be eligible for historic events by now.

I am fairly sure my ramblings will be of no use to you at all and I'm sorry to have wasted your time.
However it has enabled me to generate a few fantasies that could keep me going for a while

On a more serious note if you can narrow down what you want to do it will be easier to refreshing of the portfolio is the best fit.

Good luck. Rsfruitbat

All good points Fruitbat. Parts for the Abarth are hard to come by but they do share a lot of components with other fiats like the 128. It's just trying to work out what comes from where. The Ritmo was more a Group N race homologation special but they were used a fair bit in rallying. I plan to use it in hillclimbs with the local Italian car club that I am on the committee with and also the Targa Tasmania. The 155 is highly specialised, it has the D2 engine with Abarth heads and a block based on the 164 turbo. Parts are unobtanium with prices to match. I have 2 engines but both have some minor parts missing. It also runs a Hewland sequential gearbox. My current thinking is sell the Sud and the Toyota. Ship the Z4 out and use that while I prep the Abarth then decide what to to do with the Z4 when the Abarth is done. Continue with Giulia and decide what to do with that when it's finished. Make a start on the 155 and see where that leads. It still leaves me with more projects than I should have but as long as I don't buy another project , it should all be good.

P.S. How are you going with my ex-project? I was hoping to see a build thread.

Hi Gary
Good luck with the difficult choices you will have to make.
Project is still in the planning stage and gathering a few bits. Had a bit of a setback when I had to get out of the unit I was storing vehicles in so I now have stuff all over the place. Driveshaft issues have also resulted in a detour on brakes and suspension. Only one more major project on the engine and the shell is the next in the pipeline. Once it kicks off I will add it to my rally car thread.

All the best and good luck. Rsfruitbat

The 155 just had to get one of my votes, the 94 btcc car is one of my all time favourite race cars.

The other choice was tougher but went to the sud because it seemed most appropriate for this forum. In reality if they were mine I think I’d chose the 155 and Giulia for a bit of fwd / rwd contrast.

Hello Gary

For me It’s the Sud 16v, (I’m biased as I have one and it took me ages to finish it also) and the 155 as it is one of the most iconic cars in BTCC history.

I have a question for you if you don’t mind; my son and I are refreshing our 33 racer - the ex Nick Anderson car - and we fancy copying the 90s BTCC look; can you confirm what colour was used for the interior and cage of the 155. The grainy photos on the internet show a dark silver colour but I am wondering if it is a standard Alfa colour, or something else?

Thanks

Adam

adsblacksud wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:05 pm

Hello Gary

For me It’s the Sud 16v, (I’m biased as I have one and it took me ages to finish it also) and the 155 as it is one of the most iconic cars in BTCC history.

I have a question for you if you don’t mind; my son and I are refreshing our 33 racer - the ex Nick Anderson car - and we fancy copying the 90s BTCC look; can you confirm what colour was used for the interior and cage of the 155. The grainy photos on the internet show a dark silver colour but I am wondering if it is a standard Alfa colour, or something else?

Thanks

Adam

Sorry, I don't. I tried to get an answer on this a few years ago and no one seemed to know the answer.

Hi Ad
I’ve been doing research and I think the BTCC works cars were painted a traditional Italian motorsport colour called “Rosso Corse”
That said I do know that there are several versions or Shades of Rosso Corse depending on manufacturer so Ferraris Rosso Corse will be different to Alfa’s shade . God I love the Italians.
Btw I’m also considering doing my Sud Rosso Corse. If I was you I’d speak to your local body shop or auto paint supplier to get an idea of what they have listed under that colour name
Lou

Thanks for your feedback Gary and Lou,

For the exterior will be AR 530 which is what Suds and series 1 33s were painted - for the interior I’ll go for Grigio Chiaro 612 which was a 155 colour option in 1993/1994.


Adam

I prefer the deeper red like this

Hi Adam
If it helps I’ve got the original Alfa technical paint details of the Colours. This included the colour composition to achieve the exact AR530 shade. I’ll dig the details out for you. I think my Spider is 612 Grigio Chiaro
Lou.

Thanks for the offer Lou, that would be kind of you.

Adam

This recipe is the 1972 M/Y and it’s the Glasurit formulation. it’s basically the percentage of each base colour mixed in the listed weights to achieve the finished shade .

It's also a good example of why mixed paint relies heavily on the care of the guy mixing it, a gm or so of one colour then a gm or so less of the next to get the weight back on track makes a huge difference to how well the paint matches what's already on the car.
We had a paint mixing scheme at a garage I worked at back in the 90's and I often got to mix up some, when you get down to the last gm or so you are really only looking at counting how many drips go in, especially when you have oranges or yellows going in that make a big change!

To avoid any such issues I always buy way more than I need and paint the whole car that way I've got spare in the tin that I know will match up in the future.

Thanks for the recipe Lou,

I’ll start a separate thread on my winter project once I have some meaningful progress to report

Adam

Your welcome Adam. I’ve actually found some other documents with it in English. . I must say Adam that the colour Swatch is now well over 40yrs old so I would recommend you ask the Paint shop if they’d do a “sprayout” using the recipe on a peice of steel to make sure your happy with the final shade. Either way it would at least be a pukka Alfa Colour

Hi Adam
Here a snap from that other paperwork I was on about Column 1 is Partial &column 2 is Progress ?? I guess your painter will know what that means. Or maybe our Kev can explain the terms . Also this AR530 recipe is the Max Meyer formulation used on suds circa 1979
Btw Gary. Sorry if we’ve hijacked your thread with all this paint code talk

And this is the Glasurit formulation. The formulation is slightly different so it would be interesting to see how they vary in appearance as they are both Alfasud Red 530. All the aforementioned documents were dated 1979. Hope all this helps
Lou

Yes, you're right Lou, column 1 as you marked is the amount of each colour and column 2 the running total, to make 1kg of paint.
The 1st column is obviously the designated colour code, AR530 that the manufacturer uses. Not sure what the 5530 is but could be the Max Meyer internal code possibly.
3rd column is the paint code for each colour, as in 4240 orange..T.C. I presume to mean topcoat rather than a basecoat/clearcoat
Column 4 (where you marked as 1) is the amount of each colour, column 5 the progressive total.
As the paint is mixed by weight rather than volume you start on the digital scales with a fresh pot with scales zero'ed and have to follow the correct sequence or the running total obviously won't work.

Interesting to note that paint suppliers get to the same colour designation by using different formulations, note the differences in the Glasurit formulation which has 1.5gm of black to finish off....that will only be a few drips, not even a teaspoon full....hence why I mentioned it's vital to get someone take care on mixing it..

Must admit I can't recall how we mixed differing amounts, other than doubling up or moving the decimal point, used to have a big microfiche reader with all the colours on but maybe the scales could be altered to suit the amount needing to be mixed? Can't actually recall that but would be the obvious answer...

As always with this forum, top advice.
I’ve got several weeks worth of prep before we get to paint but I’ll keep you posted.

Thanks

Adam

Just one thing, as Kev pointed out the numbers referrer to the weights of each tinter added together to make the mix.
However, since laws and regulations changed many years ago what we have found is that most tinters have been changed and colours have been re-formulated as lead is not allowed. Hopefully you will not notice the difference and your paint supplier should be able to come up with something pretty close.
Metallic is a problem for old classic colours as mica is now used and you get a pearl flip.

Good Point Keith these are indeed old recipes and the original paint and tints listed probably would of contained Lead. As I mentioned before give the details to your paint guys and ask if they can do a spray outs. To confirm the shade is what your looking for .

Back to the poll........did you make a decision Gary ?

Last word on paint colours?
Valentino Rossi.

Apt for today?

Veesix75 wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:40 am

Back to the poll........did you make a decision Gary ?

Not yet. My head is saying the sud and the 155 as these are the least practical for me, but it's hard to pull the trigger.