Escort Hunter Killer

An area for Alfa Racers to share their experiences and plans, along with technical specs and details (if willing!) of their beloved cars.
Post Reply
Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

I need a solution to get me up the front of the pack. A car that complies with the rules 100% and is not a Ford. It also has to be done so it doesn't break the bank. Here it is:
IMG_5672.JPG
Group 1
1800 8v
165bhp
769kg
Leda suspension
Wilwood brakes
Quaife LSD
Lovely welded roll cage
Not expensive.

User avatar
BS25
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:57 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by BS25 »

Really good spec - looking forward to seeing how it fares :)

User avatar
PETROLHEAD
Posts: 3045
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Ditto! :D
SHREW

I AM the Law!


Alfasud 1.7-16v, Charade Turbo SR, & The Dirty Diesels - GT Cloverleaf, 159 Ti Sportwagon, Saab 9-3 Sportwagon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Guys,
I did a few checks to get a feel for the scope of the project. The wheels are 15in and need to be 14in. The existing front discs and calipers will have to be changed as 14in wheels won't fit over them.
IMG_5696.JPG
I measured the stroke and it turns out the engine is a 2 litre. It has to be 1847cc.
IMG_5712.JPG
Everything is relatively cheap. An 1800 DX engine is £125. The std 5 bearing crank is good for 400bhp. The Wossner forged pistons and steel rods kit is £850. An 1847cc engine built by JMR Motorsport will produce 195bhp at 7600 to 7900rpm and it is a very torqy engine. The perfect pinion and crown wheel ratio is from a std VW. The gearbox in it is an 8V close ratio.
I weighed the car and it is 769kg, probably 9kg of fuel in it. I will put carbon Kevlar wings, bonnet, bumpers and tailgate on it, lighter fire
extinguisher etc. Original dash goes back in so will probably end up as 750kg. With me and fuel about 865kg. Min weight is 925kg.
Put an original Nose back on it just for fun. I think it looks better.
IMG_5670.JPG
I want to style it as an Akai Golf. 14in ATS cup wheels on their way. Very difficult to find.
IMG_5733.JPG
That's it for now.
All the best,
Simon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

ATS cup 14in wheels arrived today and they are 1kg per wheel lighter than the 14in Ronals I have.

Ronal
IMG_5742.JPG
ATS Cup
IMG_5743.JPG
Brgds
Simon

88liam
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:34 pm
Location: Lancs

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by 88liam »

Hi Simon,

What weight and power is the escort,

Liam

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Liam,

The Escorts minimum weight is 945kg and I am advised that a 2 litre pinto on twin choke Webber's can be tuned to 240bhp. So 254bhp/tonne.

The Golf will be 193bhp with a min weight of 905kg. So 213bhp/tonne. But front wheel drive, better handling, better brakes as the wheels are 14in vs Escort 13in. 5 speed gearbox.

Escort driver is very skilled though.

Brgds
Simon

88liam
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:34 pm
Location: Lancs

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by 88liam »

Hi Simon

Whats the minimum weight on your sud.

Liam

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Liam,

1300cc min weight is 805KG

My Sud is 880KG fuelled up with me in it.
117bhp - so 133bhp/tonne.

My top speed at Rockingham on the start/finish straight was 106mph. BTCC cars are doing 120mph.

Brgds,
Simon

Ted27sud
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:57 pm
Location: Bishop's Stortford. Herts/Essex borders.

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Ted27sud »

Marlow Sud wrote: Escort driver is very skilled though.
Don't put him on a pedestal Simon, you're every bit as good, if not better.

Ted

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Ted,
That was very kind of you. Loving learning the ropes.
Malcolm and I were talking about the video of you in the Green Meanie at Cadwell today and Michael fondly remembers being in the Green Meanie at Snetterton when you were all over the back of a Porsche GT3!
Inspirational stuff!
All the best Ted,
Simon

Veesix75
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:37 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Veesix75 »

How about this for eating a few escorts....

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds ... d1/7189526

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Tim,
That certainly would do the trick. You would have to put an original 3.5 litre block on it instead of the 4.5 litre it has at the minute but I have read that you can get 340bhp out of a 3.5 litre.
Brgds
Simon

Veesix75
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:37 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Veesix75 »

Alternative golf livery.....
image.jpeg

User avatar
BS25
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:57 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by BS25 »

The SD1 is certainly the class of the field at the Goodwood Members Meeting each year - and in period too.

I've seen the Golf in that spec/livery before - fantastic! The Berg Cup series is full of them (and similar) - hours have been lost to Youtube watching them!

User avatar
PETROLHEAD
Posts: 3045
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by PETROLHEAD »

plus berg cup arches are just sooooooo sexy!
SHREW

I AM the Law!


Alfasud 1.7-16v, Charade Turbo SR, & The Dirty Diesels - GT Cloverleaf, 159 Ti Sportwagon, Saab 9-3 Sportwagon

User avatar
BS25
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:57 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by BS25 »

They are - if one likes retro wide rims, big arches and high revving engines then it's heaven......can't think who that would appeal to.......other than everyone! :D

User avatar
PETROLHEAD
Posts: 3045
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:51 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by PETROLHEAD »

Spot on! :lol:
SHREW

I AM the Law!


Alfasud 1.7-16v, Charade Turbo SR, & The Dirty Diesels - GT Cloverleaf, 159 Ti Sportwagon, Saab 9-3 Sportwagon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

The Golf is only allowed 14in wheels or smaller to race with the CTCRC so I bought four ATS 14 x 6J ET 33 wheels. They are back from a refurb as follows:
IMG_6263.JPG
Brgds
Simon

Kegsti66
Posts: 2850
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:20 pm
Location: Northamptonshire

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Kegsti66 »

Luvley jubbley 8-)

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi guys,

Trying to get the best possible brakes inside these 14in wheels.

One method is to use MK2 Golf G60 vented front discs which are 280mm and machine them to a 270mm diameter. You have to use a Golf calliper though which is just one cylinder but it all fits in a 14in wheel and I have been told the brakes are very good.

I am keen to use a proper 4 pot race calliper but space is a real issue. First I drew up an accurate cross section of the ATS Cup 14in wheel and drew in the various Golf front discs as follows:
IMG_6287.JPG
One of the most compact four pot race callipers is the HiSpec R114DL. I printed the drawing at 1:1 scale.
IMG_6288.JPG
As you can see. It's too tight and cannot be used with golf discs. The problem is the disc diameter and lack of height.

I did pick up on a thread that you can fit Rover 800 Vitesse discs. They are 4x100 pcd and 22mm vented as per the Golf but 262mm diameter and most importantly they have more height! The HiSpec calliper fits nicely as follows:
IMG_6290.JPG
Brgds
Simon

User avatar
KevJTD
Posts: 5108
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:48 pm
Location: Lincs

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by KevJTD »

Impressive diagrams Simon 8-)
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

I knew that the cut and paste we learnt at primary school would come in handy one day!

The key to it was printing the lovely hispec calliper drawing as it is on the screen at 133% to get a 1:1 scale drawing.

Brgds
Simon

bobkelso
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by bobkelso »

Hi, nice to see on picture some precise measures of rims, spacers and 4 pot calipers.
Can you gain some millimeters of space reversing left/right
the image of the caliper or is about the same?

Bob

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Good point Bob. I think I have the calliper with the mount lugs on the wrong side.
I have flipped it around and I reckon the largest disc would be 266mm with the 15mm spacer so a 262mm disc is fine.
To use the 280mm existing discs I would need to fit a 25mm spacer which I am not keen on.

So this is what I have settled on:
IMG_6291.JPG
Brgds
Simon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Guys,
My drawing was showing I could fit a 280mm disc and four pot caliper in the ATS 14in wheel with a 20mm spacer but in reality it requires a spacer of 22.5mm.

What I didn't appreciate is that when you fit the wheel it is going to look very silly with any spacers. The tyre will be proud of the wheel arch. It seems the ATS wheel offset doesn't allow spacers to be used.

This pushes the inside of the wheel closer to the disc and calliper so I have to start again.

This is the wheel with no spacers:
IMG_6308.JPG
The first thing is to see how far I can push the disc inwards towards the suspension leg.
This is the bare hub:
IMG_6304.JPG
The current disc offset is the distance from the hub face to the inner disc face = 45mm. As you can see, you can't move the disc inwards any further. The lower knuckle joint is actually slightly inside the arc of the disc!
IMG_6306.JPG
So with a 21mm vented disc, the max disc offset is 45mm and the disc face bolted to the hub is 7mm which corresponds to a disc height of 52mm.

Brgds
Simon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

So we have a 21mm vented disc with a maximum disc height of 52mm.

A very important consideration is the disc centre bore which is the key location feature. This shows the disc location diameter of 65mm and the wheel location diameter of 57mm.
IMG_6307.JPG
What I have read is that the pcd of the stud holes in a disc are not a stopper. You can drill the ones you want. Say you have a pcd of 4x98 and you want 4x100 - just drill four more holes at 4x100. This seems quite a common practice to get the disc you want. I have seen where a spare hub is located in the centre bore of the disc and the hub stud holes are used as a template to drill the holes in the disc. It seems that drilling the cast iron is not a problem.

So this is where I have ended up with no spacers:
IMG_6315.JPG
And with the calliper:
IMG_6316.JPG
Brgds
Simon

bobkelso
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:59 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by bobkelso »

Hi, nice customization, tryng to get maximum from brake disks.

I'm not sure but regular rims for golf could be ET 38mm ?
using your rims with ET 33 you have a 'virtual spacer' of 5 mm
(and maybe also some more millimeters due to larger than regular rims, 6").

This to say that probably you can still add a spacer of 10mm without
too many problems of wheel/arch contact (?) if this spacer can help to
solve some problems, for example for using some disks with a bit less
height than 52 mm or another model of disk you prefer.

Actually there are on ebay some nice german spacers with a clever design
than can have the centering edge also when selected in the thin measure of 10mm
(until some years ago, the minimun measure to have centering edge present
in commercial spacers was 13mm).

Of course if you manage to find a solution without spacers the modification will be more neat :)

Ps.: probably you already know, the web site of Brembo spares have the PDf-images
with quotes in mm of every commercially stock available disks.

Just as example of the many disks slightly different availables,
I had searched on Brembo web sites to find some disks to put under 14 rims in alfa 33
(but using normal brake calipers from opel tigra, or the more massive caliper from opel calibra,
not some excellent alloy racing 4 pot as your modification for racing) and there were many findings
(in this case the diameter of the disk was limited to about 255-257mm because of the caliper design):
https://forum.clubalfa.it/attachments/0 ... jpg.92334/
https://forum.clubalfa.it/attachments/0 ... jpg.92333/

As you say, if necessary you can surely drill 4 more holes 100x4 on a 98x4 disk.
A more annoyng part is to have the central centering hole of the selected disk
of the right diameter for the hub (57mm on your car), if the hole is smaller it can
be modified to 57mm, but if larger I think it could be probably prudent add a small
centering ring for the disk, to avoid microdeplacement of the disk at every wheel change,
(not trusting too much the 2 small retaining disk bolts), to avoid that some
microdeplacement of the disk will disturb the disk/pads regular coupling?

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Hi Bob,

Great info thanks.
I think that I may need to add a small wheel spacer but I can keep that up my sleeve while trying to use no spacers. Thanks for the tip on the 10mm centering German ones.

What I have learnt is the 4x100 VAG discs (early cars) have no depth - 39mm max. The 50-52mm depth is non-negotiable. More than 52mm depth and the disc fouls on the knuckle joint. Less than 50mm and I cannot fit a slimline 4 pot calliper.
A vented disc thicker than 22mm is not possible.

Some of the later VAG discs have the 50mm depth and a 65mm centre hole (1.6 Jetta (1K2)) but are 280mm and 5 stud holes.
Having to drill the 4x100 holes is almost certain but machining 15mm from outside the disc seems a lot of work?

My Rover 800 discs require the centre hole machining from 64mm to 65mm, the 4x100 holes cutting and machining down from 260mm.

I didn't know about the Brembo info. I will take a look. I was looking at the Tarox site. You pick a Golf GTi model and the further info button for that disc opens up info on the whole VW range. Same for Alfas.

The Alfa 33 brake info is excellent. It might get lost in this thread. Can we put it in an Alfa 33 or brake thread Shrew for all to gain easy access?

All the best,
Simon

Marlow Sud
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Escort Hunter Killer

Post by Marlow Sud »

Here is the link to the Tarox disc dimensions catalogue for Alfas:

http://www.tarox.co.uk/downloads/brake- ... _romeo.pdf

Brgds,
Simon

Post Reply