What's the deal with the Alfa Romeo Championship

[garygecko]

I just checked the results from Combe and there was 13 starters! In the good old days there was two full grids class F and classes A-E. What's gone wrong? Is it the cost? Class structure or maybe because it is not affiliated with AROC anymore?

[Veesix75]

All of the above to a degree Gary.

Many uk series have lower grids than when I started racing, and some that were very tight on regs now have invitation classes to allow cars that don't conform to race (less than 10 years ago they would have refused entry).

I think the split for aroc / arca didn't help, but it's not the only reason. Running a cheap 33 in a large grid still allowed people to have a race at the back, but as the classes quite rightly moved forward into twin spark models it wasn't as easy to have a cheaper car and the grids dropped off. Just a personal view, but I think arca also suffered a bit with the personal agendas when it first split. Aroc then suffered when trying to resurrect some classic racing as it wasn't supported that well other than the one chap trying hard to get it going.

The race entry is also ridiculous in the uk, 275 for a single race, 350 for double headers. Some series offer discounts based on grid size but it's still a rip off.

I've been surprised with the number of classic Alfa's I've come across in the past 2 years in various series, not just bertones but a few alfettas and the Sud's on here. You don't see that many modern Alfa's outside of arca, I know of 3 twin sparks in the ctcrc pre 2003 series. 3 litre Alfa 75's would do well in pre 93. A few 33 racers have cropped recently for sale but havnt seen one race for a long time.

Havnt seen the likes of Tim Lewis for years, Adie Hawkins sometimes runs in classic thunder, that modified black (was green) gtv6 sometimes runs in mod sports I think.

So, it is a general theme in uk racing unfortunately, I've never been in a grid the size of hose early class f and class e combined races. 38 cars raced at Silverstone in my first year of racing.

[BS25]

All true points - theres also a few more.

Specific to this season has been a few missing modified cars (various reasons, nothing sinister). Several more across all classes were on holiday. There was a round at Zolder 5 weeks ago - I looked into doing this and decided it couldn't be done for less than £2k - so I didn't go. Some did and haven't been out since due to the hole in the budget a European race left. Even on a poor turnout like at Combe, the return of a few regulars would get the grid to 20 and that's pretty normal, has been for years. I remember the series as a handicap series with 8 cars and then within very few years being 2 x grids of 30+ cars. As Tim said, grids at most series are much lower now than before - remember the Porsche 924 series? Full 30+ grid everywhere for years - now down to a class of 6 cars running with 7/8 Boxsters.

A BRSCC double header starts at £390 - very, very expensive. In August there are two x double header weekends - anyone doing both will be spending at least £1000 + by the time they have bought fuel and got to the circuits - not including accommodation, tyres, wear and tear, etc. Costs are astronomical, true, but there are plenty of people turning up with £40k motorhomes.

Not specific to this season is a reflection of the type of cars Alfa have been selling since the end of the 156 in 2006. The 159 is too heavy and neither the Mito or Giulietta are particularly inspiring from a racing point of view - nor is there an obvious place for them in the Class structure - without going the expensive modified route. An invitation class Giulietta is being built (V8 rear wheel drive special) and one Mito has existed for the last 3 years but hasn't seen much use. The obvious vehicle is the 155bhp Mito - but you need several to either make a class or to encourage existing 156/147/145 racers to update.

The biggest issue is that not being part of the club removes the exposure to 4000+ Alfa enthusiasts within the club so marketing is that much harder. We on here (ClassicAlfa) are clearly a reflection of the different type of enthusiast in that we like Alfa's of what is now a different generation - it's a different level of enthusiasm now - especially for racing. Back when I started racing in 1993 (and then beyond) aside from the obvious family racing link there were Alfa's competing at the very front of DTM, BTCC, ETCC, WTCC, etc,etc. All inspiring stuff - where is that now?

For the championship it's down to the organisers and competitors to make it better than it currently is - for Alfa it's to make more cars that we all want to drive - not just the top end stuff like 4c, 8c and Giulia QV. Alfa is a brand that should have mass appeal, not a cult following amongst a few.

[Veesix75]

I didn't know the brscc double headers were £390, I should be happy in that case with my 2 * 20 min race double headers at £350.

It's really a good point on the car models, which I guess applies to all one make series to a degree, even the fast ford mob seem to have reduced.

The lower end of the grids have dwindled due to cost and access to a cheaper race car, and a 20 car grid is considered good today as you say Bryan. Perhaps the popularity of track days has helped with people choosing that over a racing based on value and track time?

[KevJTD]

surely the answer from purely a spectators perspective (which would in itself give a much wider variety for the racers) would be to amalgamate with other ailing series.
I for one used to love the Italian intermarque championships..
imagine a grid of fiat puntos with the twin sparks, a sprinkling of fiat coupe turbos to mix with the modified alfa's, the odd Ferrari and lambo (although I don't think they'd "lower" themselves enough with newer models so maybe the odd 308 type car, a lancia or two....bet there'd be full grids and battles all the way down the grid

why do clubs insist on continuing with struggling grids when joining forces would bring back the glory days?
more entrants for them per race organisiation, fuller grids to keep spectators interested, any reason why (politics aside) that it couldn't happen?

[garygecko]

All good points.

I think they should offer more classes to attract Mito's, Giulietta's 159s, etc if they offer it someone will build something. No one used to care if class b, c or d had one or two runners they just didn't score full points and people were happy with a class win.They also need to tempt back the classic cars as Tim says there are plenty around. I also think the invitation class is a mistake and the fact that someone is building a car for it says something. I would be p*ssed if I spent a fortune on a modified car only to get blasted into the weeds by something built outside the regs!

As for AROC it was an absolute disgrace what happened to Michael but it was a long time ago now and perhaps some bridge building would be good. I am sure AROC members would like to read race reports in their magazine and maybe joining AROC could be part of deal for racing. Probably never happen though.

As you say Bryan 20 cars is a reasonable grid. Brands is next and that is always popular so I guess that would be a litmus test for the health of the championship. I would hate to see it fade away, I plan to race in it again one day!

[garygecko]

surely the answer from purely a spectators perspective (which would in itself give a much wider variety for the racers) would be to amalgamate with other ailing series.
I for one used to love the Italian intermarque championships..
imagine a grid of fiat puntos with the twin sparks, a sprinkling of fiat coupe turbos to mix with the modified alfa's, the odd Ferrari and lambo (although I don't think they'd "lower" themselves enough with newer models so maybe the odd 308 type car, a lancia or two....bet there'd be full grids and battles all the way down the grid

why do clubs insist on continuing with struggling grids when joining forces would bring back the glory days?
more entrants for them per race organisiation, fuller grids to keep spectators interested, any reason why (politics aside) that it couldn't happen?

I think this would be a mistake, look what happened to Autoitalia when it went Eurowide.

[Veesix75]

The heat is getting to my senses today, hence in answer to Kevs question in general, the George Orwell novel Animal Farm has most of the answers to that question, be it clubs or politicians and world leaders .....happy reading.

[Veesix75]

Forgot to say......I would support a classic Italian series, but as Gary says it brings risks.

The invitation classes don't score points, and even if they come first don't get a podium to preserve the class structure and protect those that have built cars true to regs. I'm happy with that as I get good races with intersting cars, but nil poi......

I think the ctcrc has a really good approach to its series and regs with pre 66, pre 83, pre 93 etc but like others suffers from reduced grids albeit some interesting cars. Stuart Cai at the ctcrc is a really nice bloke and is trying to get good grids in pre 83.

The hscc organises some fantastic meetings and some of its series are 30 car grids for the majority of races but a lot are single seater series.

Some of the modified older Alfa's could slot in pre 93 or classic thunder .

[KevJTD]

was just a thought, no more long term thought out strategy than that, just I really used to enjoy the mixed marque races.

nothing more to add than that, purely from a spectators point of view

[garygecko]

was just a thought, no more long term thought out strategy than that, just I really used to enjoy the mixed marque races.

nothing more to add than that, purely from a spectators point of view

I used to love watching AMOC intermarque championship. Gerry Marshal in a big Aston v8 beating the Porsches was a highlight but I see that now has small grids and has opened up to different cars.

[KevJTD]

guess there's no easy answer.

[PETROLHEAD]

guess there's no easy answer.

Certainly not, you're right there, but, the lack of a Race Co-ordinator in the Alfashop Championship, or any kind of proactive leadership to be honest has got to be a major reason for its poor grids too. There's just no oomph to it currently, no push and certainly no-one steering it in any positive direction.

Thats not an attack on persons in particular, its just the way its ended up, but someone needs to take the wheel!

I keep dropping the hint to Tom but its so far falling on very very deaf ears, and i don't blame him either!

[garygecko]

guess there's no easy answer.

Certainly not, you're right there, but, the lack of a Race Co-ordinator in the Alfashop Championship, or any kind of proactive leadership to be honest has got to be a major reason for its poor grids too. There's just no oomph to it currently, no push and certainly no-one steering it in any positive direction.

Thats not an attack on persons in particular, its just the way its ended up, but someone needs to take the wheel!

I keep dropping the hint to Tom but its so far falling on very very deaf ears, and i don't blame him either!

What! There's no series coordinator?

[PETROLHEAD]

Not really mate, no!


Graham Heels was the last guy to have a grip on things, since then its been a relatively vacant position.

Michael Lindsay, Grahams predecessor, has kind of re-involved himself in a very very lose manor, but doesn't make any hard decisions about things, still commentates on most races, attends all he can and fuss's over us in the paddock, and i don't mean that in a derogitory manner at all, at least he tries to do something and its not his position be doing anything really.

Clive Hodgkin almost joined the fray, more accidentally falling into a pair of shoes that no-one else wanted to slip on, and did what he democratically could, but hasn't been very well of late and i wish him well, so sadly that didn't really get the championship back on course either.

So really, the answer is no, the brscc alfashop championship is currently without a race co-ordinator to speak of and if things carry on, up the creek without a paddle too!

[mbakermarco]

I know this is an old thread, but I cant for the life of me understand why the AutoItalia championship couldn't be revived - it was a great championship, particularly when running alongside the Alfa championship. (I used to hire my car out to Ted Reddick to do the Alfa race while I did Auto Italia) Anyone heard from Ted by the way ?

Mark Baker

[garygecko]

Well at least ARCA acknowledge there is a problem and are looking for feedback

http://alfaracer.com/driver-questionnaire/

My suggestions were for the modified class to go back to engine size classes and get rid of the power trophy. I also suggested relaxing the rules so supertourers and cars like the Hawkins 33 and that 8c engine Giuletta can run.

I also suggested that they try to accommodate more models like the old class E & D did.

And try and get some of the classic cars on board but I am not sure how though. Perhaps see if there is enough old class F cars about to run a one off trophy race?

Finally I suggested they mend bridges with AROC but I don't think that will ever happen.

What suggestions do you guys have? And I would encourage you to fill out the questionnaire. Hopefully ARCA will listen and make some changes.

[PETROLHEAD]

My suggestion, purely from the car and racers side would reflect Kevs, an intermarque/autoitalia type if series, only i would limit it to fiat, alfa, lancia, as i see including ferrari, masserati etc etc a little fraught, plus they have their race structures already so attendences could be low anyway, but right now where could you race your 131, punto, coupe, delta, dedra,.monte etc?

Slim pickings for race opportunities in a suitable class for those cars too i think, so surely an italian only series would flourish?

I think class structures has to be looked at again too, particularly if including the fiats and lancias, but a power to weight ratio and engine sizing classification is a simple enough place to start, and then your modifieds based on their extremity from the standard car should cater for the higher budget teams not just walking away with every bit of silverware on offer!


From a spectators point of view, there's the appeal to 3 manufacturers audiences, their club and forum members, and as someone invloved to some degree, I'd love nothing more than pulling into a paddock full of competitors with pride and well prepared fiats and lancias to race against, rather than the current set up, of which i'll refrain (yes i can sometimes!) from slagging off, as it does at least get us out there.


As a slight comparison to our brscc series, admittedly in a slightly different way, the ctcrc series of mixed manufacturers and class structure is booming.

Busy grids, good amount of needle and competitive spirit, especially now our own alfa guys are sticking it to'em once again (keep it up chaps!) and the crowds are loving it, gate attendence is brilliant and they are mixed in with some great other series races for the weekend event.

I think some forward thinking from both sides of the gate has to be applied, but sooner rather than later

[Veesix75]

I think the ctcrc does well because of the variety on offer plus the interest in retro and soon to be classics is high in general which might help the pre 93, 83, 66 etc.

ARCA wanted to go modern for the right reasons at the time but the cheap entry level cars were the older ones at the time.

The average racer age is increasing when I look around the paddock, costs will stop younger drivers getting in, track days offer more value in a Clio or similar.

Codgers like me gravitate to the older stuff, younger drivers like my nephew are into Hondas and Clio's......there is no route into modern Alfas.

[KevJTD]

I liked the Intermarque series simply for the variety, the quicker "standard" cars trying to mix it with the exotics from Ferrari etc.
It's what makes the CTCRC series so entertaining, who doesn't like to see an Imp or Mini trying to nip at the back bumper of a Lotus Cortina?
That's why the AROC series falls down a bit for me, the vast majority of cars are in the Twin Spark class so all the 156/147's in not much more than road going trim just doesn't do much for me I'm afraid, there's only a handful of cars worth watching really. Which is a huge shame, and no easy answer for it. Opening up the classes to allow more modifications would only make things worse I guess as it would force all to invest to remain competitive.

My own preference and one which would bring in spectators from multiple marques as Shrew says is to open it to as many Italian marques as possible, using a similar class structure to what Simon and Malcolm have in that the class structures are based on power to weight ratios. This would allow things like Ferrari and Maserati to race which after all would only add to the spice, but give everyone a more even playing field. Now we all know power/weight isn't the be all and end all so you'd still get the mix up of the Jack Russell terrier chasing after the German Shepherd and with more cars in the car parks the promoters would surely gain favour from the event organisers?

In that way you'd still cater for the budget racer who has a 147 which would be relatively heavy but he'd have some Punto's to battle with, the likes of Bryans' 33 would no doubt gain more satisfaction from beating a F355 than pottering around Cadwell at 3 or 4 seconds per lap below his possible pace just to walk to a win, Uno turbo battling with a 131 or Strada? There must be these cars out there that have nowhere to race because they have this or that modification, allowing a far more flexible approach to eligibility using the power/weight class structure would surely be a winner?

[Veesix75]

The ctcrc is more engine size based than power to weight, albeit with a min weight based on engine cc's.

It's also been successful by catering for other dwindling one make series like boss ford and this year the vw's and combining grids.

The cscc future classics, northern saloons, 750 motor club and the one quaife sponsored all offer flexible class structures hence they see a real mix of machinery.....intermarque in reality.

I always liked auto Italia, great series, and Arca is half there already allowing the Punto's to run so maybe that's the way to go.

Based on current arca grids, I can see it getting absorbed into the likes of the ctcrc, the twins parks in the pre 2003 class C, modified in classic thunder or just squeezing into one of the 'pre yy' series if not too modified.

The aroc was the way I got into racing, reading the reports, going to watch and then needing to have a go. Without a feeder or link like aroc to generate interest then it will be harder to attract new racers. The spat when it split was a few people who didn't consider the wider impact I'd suggest. Certain Arca people never made me feel welcome in my scruffy old sud when I first turned up to race, the racers did but the odd panel member being too aloof and self serving for my taste, but that's life ....wouldn't do for us all to be the same.

I wouldn't put my sprint in with modern cars, the latter tends to have too many people who think they are in btcc touring cars and bouncing off each other is somehow acceptable so I'd never return to Arca anyhow, or any series that had newer cars in it. If I did I'd race a Clio or a Honda Civic .

Hate to say it, but not sure Arca will survive if the latest race entry is anything to go on.
My last hscc race at Donington had 32 cars, ctcrc pre 83 and pre 66 combined at cadwell 27 cars, and hscc next week at cadwell has 25 entered on the grid.

[garygecko]

Yeah, I have had a similar experience Tim with certain organisers making me feel unwelcome but I quite enjoyed winding them up.

I am not sure that ARCA would want to lose the Alfa identity by allowing other marques but perhaps they could run it like AMOC used to and make it part of the challenge with the Marques competing for team points.

I think it's crazy that they now allow sequential gearbox's but the 33 isn't allowed as you need to modify the bulkhead to get it in. They also have made supertourers illegal. There are people out there who want to compete but cant. In the meantime ARCA are sometimes running with one modified car, it's insane.

I would love to see Adie Hawkins out there against Neil Smith and if these guys return, I think some other racers may come back and try and beat them or at least try and keep up.

I watched one recent YouTube clip and a modified car came blasting past followed a bit later by a single power trophy car followed a bit later by 8 or so Twinspark cup cars. Who wants to watch that? And I am not sure the modified car had much fun running around on his own, might as well have gone to a track day.

[Veesix75]

The modified cars are still out there somewhere, but as much as I hate to say it, Adie Hawkins and Lee Penn look to have much better / entertaining races in ctcrc classic thunder.

Both doing very well and pushing top 5. Bryan and his 33 would be competitive in classic Thunder as would Roger Evans ex supercharged GTV , and his soon to be built 8C Giulietta, albeit not sure of the age cut off. The thunder grid can sometimes be 15 or so cars but when it has been it has also been merged with the boss Fords hence some equally quick Escorts / Cosworths.

And to Kevs point, it's good to watch and drive in.

Adie and Lee have posted YouTube vids of some of their thunder races.

[BS25]

Many years ago I made the decision to only race at circuits I enjoy - it's an expensive hobby anyway but even more so if you don't enjoy aspects of it. Falling grids (for all the reasons commented on above - and more) means less bargaining power for championships when it comes to getting good venues. However, what I like isn't necessarily what someone else likes - I've always gone well at Brands and Mallory but can't stand either of them!

Yes, it's not much fun with very few (if any) modified cars. It's true that a great race with one other is good enough - but a retirement (or double retirement) ruins it completely! Let's not get too misty eyed - there has rarely been more than 4 modified cars at any race for years - the odd meeting where they have all turned up have been stand out events and the numbers have never carried through to the next round - I'm going back 10-15 years there as well. There's lots of talk of the modified cars being absent - last year there were 18 Twin Spark Cup cars at Silverstone - there are 6 entered for Rockingham next weekend. Not sure why - panel damage is frequent, perhaps that is putting some people off (it would me) - hopefully the questionnaire may shed some light on that.

I really enjoy racing at Croft so will be doing a couple of rounds of the Northern Sports and Saloons late summer - that's a real mixed bag of quick and quirky - ideal for the 33! Top ten overall and top three in class could be possible. I'm sure some of the modified cars in build/repair will return to the ARCA series - I'm intending on doing the season ending Donington round if there is a sufficient modified entry. Whether or not the series survives in it's current format remains to be seen.

[Veesix75]

Fotgot to add the part about choosing just the circuits nearby or that I like most. That's also for cost and time reasons so doesn't help the organisers.

The success of the hscc means it gets fantastic venues and dates, Silverstone and brands GP curcuits every year, and croft is one of my favourites and it's the nostalgia weekend with the hscc. Lots of single seaters though rather than tin tops. 5 alfas entered in 70's Roadsports for cadwell.....almost as many as Arca at Rockingham

The northern saloons were at cadwell with ctcrc a few weeks ago, big grid and everything from ultra fast caterham types to tr7 v8 and modified hatchbacks. In fact the ctcrc cadwell meeting was huge, we were in the overflow on the left at the top. Excellent weekend other than my dismal performance. The legends being a highlight....... I'd like to have a go in one.

Let us know when you are at Croft Bryan, if I can make it I'll have a blast up to watch, I can get ther in 90 mins , no traffic police permitting !

[garygecko]

Looks like ARCA listened!

http://alfaracer.com/2018-is-go/

And with a new coordinator, hopefully things will improve. Shame some modified and Supertouring Alfas still cant score points but definitely a step in the right direction.

[KevJTD]

Great news, fingers crossed the odd Lancia and Abarth will join in to give it a bit more variety and feel of the old Italian Intermarque days
Plus great to see that the Cadwell double header isn't the same weekend as the Le Mans 24 hours like it's been the last few years, glad I bought a season ticket again for this year!