My new project, finally got my integrale.

Pete Jennings
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Pete Jennings »

What oil viscosity is in it and what oil pressure hot and cold have you got? AT idle and say at 3k?
My 16v has run on fiat(Petronas now) oil HPX 20/50 iirc.. John Walley himself reccomended it to me and it's what they used to put in it when they looked after it for previous owner..
Mine has 6 bar pressure or there abouts on cold start up, dropping to say 2 bar at 90c with fan cutting in.
At 3k driving on road this is more like 3 bar iirc.... taking it to get wheel alignment done wed so will check.
Gauges aren't always that accurate.... volt meter is miles off...
I had similar with my sprint actually.... before strip down no oil pressure problems.... put it all back together ran for a few weeks and one day went out in it and oil pressure got lower and lower.... got it home.... checked oil.... changed oil and filter.... checked the car hand book for the factory oil viscosity and what pressure was considered acceptable.... I put hpx in sprint too.... I have historically run it on 10w40 but it seems happy on hpx so will have this in it going forward.
Cheers
Peter

alfadave
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by alfadave »

Had the same low oil pressure reading in my Beta......
a new oil pressure sender fixed it!

Prev owner (a Lancia expert) told me it was a common problem.

Do this before you even think of a strip down!!

alfadave
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by alfadave »

Have a look on the Lancia Beta Forum for more info

alfadave
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by alfadave »

And yes, use 20W/50 oil.

I was using 10W/40 and was advised to change it.

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

Only get a reading of 1bar, or less at a warm idle.
cruising with warm engine and around 2.5k only around 2.5b
Only ever seen 4 bar on cold start up but drops fairly soon.
I have got 10w40 Shell oil in, did wonder about using some 20w50 but I don't think the gains would be what it would need to near double the figures.

I at first thought it was just an inaccurate gauge, but at idle the low pressure warning lamp flickers, which is from a different sender.


I've got a new pump coming tomorrow as I want it to be a long lasting solution rather than use a thicker oil grade, been up to the car tonight to drain the fluids ready to start it on Wednesday.


Other than dropping the transfer case off to gain access to the rear sump bolts it looks reasonably straightforward..
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Kegsti66
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Kegsti66 »

Chin up mate, sorry to hear the pressure is low.
Hopefully you will sort it quickly.

Pete Jennings
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Pete Jennings »

As I say, John Walley recommended 20/50 hpx in my 16v.... it has run on it perfectly well for the 17 years or so I have owned it... agreed the gauge and light do use different sensors.
I have never run mine on 10w40..... John if you ever spoke to him had forgotten more than most average owners knew about integrale..
He diagnosed faults over the phone several times for me before he retired.
I guess the question is :- is your pressure low because your pump is tired or is it because your bearing clearances are a little wide.
I have an artical from back in the day where Richard Thorn( ex mike spence motorsport) also recommended a 20/50....
You could always ring walkers or Auto integrale to get a viscosity recommendation before you start ...
Changing the oil is alot less hassle that dropping the transfer box off.... although if you do just go ahead and change your pump it would be interesting to remain on 10w40 and see what improvement you get
.
Cheers
Peter

Pete Jennings
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Pete Jennings »

You can get the lower sump off a 16v without touching the transfer box..... didn't think the 8v was different.... Will be interested to hear the procedure.
I could do with changing my upper sump gasket.... but that is a gearbox out job and the week is really too minor to warrant that .... .

alfadave
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by alfadave »

Change both senders before you resort to major surgery!!

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

I've 2 seperate gauges and warning systems saying the same thing, over £100 to buy both senders!
I'm changing the pump guys, wasn't asking whether I should or not...just wanted to say what was happening.
I'm not going to mask the issue..
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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Spacenut
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Spacenut »

Hmm. As you say, two senders consistently reading low probably means low oil pressure. Good luck with the oil pump swap...

junior
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by junior »

Hi Kev.

Just realised that the mechanics who came over to inspect my Sud the otherday while we swapped springs, included Tanc Barret who is I am sure you know a Intergrale specialist.

He was very happy to chat with me and is now a friend of Eric, so if you want me to ask him anything over problems you may have, feel free to say and i will do so. :D

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

Cheers guys, I'm on top of things, when time allows.
Quite chilled about it actually, as I've already driven the car then I'm not so anxious to find out what it's like!


Transfer gearbox is off the car now, that needed to come off to get at the rearmost sump bolts, sump needs to come off to get at the pick up/strainer pipe.

That meant that O/S driveshaft needed to come out so I took the whole hub and bottom arms off to allow decent access, prop connection undone with just lowering the centre mount was enough to pull it away without removing the whole prop, handy that all the bolts had been out recently!


Timing belt and balance belts also need to come off of course as the pump fits behind the bottom pulley on the cranks' nose.



There was more to remove than that, alternator and starter motor come off to gain access to stuff....quite a list of bits.

At the moment the new pump is on the car, belts back on and timed up, sump waiting to go back on next time.

I've taken the precaution of checking the mains and big end shells visually and with plastigauge to make sure things are still OK.


Just glad I have managed to do it without taking the engine out, or even the gearbox. Just nuts and bolts, nothing too strenuous..


A good visit next time should see it back together.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

rsfruitbat
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by rsfruitbat »

Really pleased things went well Kev. Half the challenge is knowing when to cut your losses rather than struggling and working around something.

ATB rsfruitbat

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

OK, an update.

The change was reasonably straightforward if a little involved.

Loads of parts needing taking off.

The oil pick-up pipe needs to come off the pump base, it bolts inside the sump. You can't reach the bolts just by taking the lower sump pan off as it doesn't extend fully across the blocks' width as there's a cut-out for the exhaust to run, so the upper sump needs to come off.

This can be done without taking the gearbox off, you do though have to take the transfer 'box off as it hides the sump bolts. That too means the alternator and starter motor needed to come off, I took the whole drivers side front suspension off to help with access too.


Cambelt & balance belt need to come off as they sit over the oil pump.


All back together today and the start up pressure was 6bar, vast improvement straight away.

Took it for a 30 mile run and the cruising 60mph oil pressure is just over 4bar with oil around 80 degs. Big improvement as was only 2.5b at best before at same speeds, same oil put back in remember.

Still not happy though as the tick-over pressure is still only around 1bar.

Gonna try some 20w50 next so see if it perks up the tick-over pressure. Happy that the pressure is normal now at cruising speeds though.


Any brand recommendations?
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

alfadave
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by alfadave »

Glad to hear Kev......

the pressure was getting too much!

Hopefully the oil light has stopped flickering.........mine did, and I changed the sender ( £6 from Beta Boyz) and it fixed it.

I've used Unipart 20W/50 and seems ok.

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

It's been trying to find the time to get it done Dave!

Happy though that I didn't get the same results after all the work!
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Veesix75
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Veesix75 »

I’ve always used Castrol.

rsfruitbat
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by rsfruitbat »

Not cheap but I am using SORT oil in the rally car. Incredible stuff

Rsfruitbat

Veesix75
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Veesix75 »

What’s the factory spec oil, 10/40 ?

I use 10/60 castrol edge (now castrol supercar, was castrol RS way back) in the Sud racer engine, both the modified one and the previous prod spec racers. Obviously temps are higher than average as the cars are thrashed constantly.

My M3 uses 10/60.

80degree doesn’t sound hot, the beemer runs 100deg oil temps in spirited driving, but the lancia is also a high performance motor and while I’m sure most folks would go :o at the thought of 10/60 you might just want to ponder it.

Edit : just re-read the posts above where lancia experts recommend 20/50. I’m sure you all know but it’s the second higher figure that is important for maintaining viscosity under high performance and load.

Pete Jennings
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Pete Jennings »

Good to see your making progress.... re the oil comments as I said my 16v has been on 20/50..... (although I have a feeling FL changed the viscosity slightly of the HPX oil at some point in the last 15 years, would have to go and look at a bottle in the garage....) For best part of the last 20 years.... John Walleys recommended it and used on in integrales both 8 and 16v.....
Paul Cutts at Deltaworks supplies it too.....
As I recall fiat formulated HPX with older turbo engines in mind....
Regards

Sud 145
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Sud 145 »

I've got some HPX left, it's 20W/50 - API SJ/CF if that's any help Kev.

Pete Jennings
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Pete Jennings »

My evo has been good as gold on it all these years... and it's in my Sprint now too.

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

I've got some Gulf 20w50 to try this weekend, I have a good contact through Silkolene so may try that too when I get chance to see him.

Had read that a couple of places also use Valvolene 10w60 race oil, Guy Croft in particular, and it isn't overly expensive either so I'll do some comparisons.

Won't hurt it to have a few oil changes! Good job I bought a few OE filters!


Hoping that the Gulf 20w50 will improve the warm pressure, the higher last number is the hot viscosity range as Tim says, probably why the 10W60 gets used.... 10W40 was the OE spec but there's enough people saying the higher grade oil is preferable so willing to try it.

The main reason for changing the pump was to make sure I was starting off on a good base, if I'd have just changed the oil and seen similar gains to what I have now then I'd still suspect the pump, at least I know now it's OK. The pressure relief valve is also incorporated into the pump so I can rule out a leaky valve sealing ring.

Sunday morning is looking likely to go up to the unit to change it, then a ride over to Cadwell I think would be nice 8-) International Sidecar Revival on, some great races being lined up for Solo's and sidecars including F1's with the likes of the TT stars the Birchall brothers, could be a great event.
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

Veesix75
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Veesix75 »

And just to confuse things further on the oil front, a good friend of mine worked for both silkolene and then castrol. When I first got into racing etc he went to see the propellor heads in the development and technical side and one of them was honest enough to tell him that oil is oil, but to make sure it’s ester based and high quality refined. All the top brands are exactly that, the rest is small gain additive and clever marketing.

The marketing clearly works as I’ve bought castrol for 25 years. Night night :D

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

Went up to the unit tonight to do the oil & filter change for the Gulf 20W50.

Seems like it's another step improvement!


OK this is with a fairly cool engine but I've never seen 8b pressure before.... 8-)

IMG_20190622_194632.jpg

Obviously once a bit of heat got into things it dropped to a more reasonable level, 5b+ at around 70mph, good thing is that even when bumbling around in top at 40mph it's still showing around 3bar+ pressure, even after the new pump it was dropping slightly below 3bar at those speeds so the 20W50 does indeed seem to be another step on.
I'll maybe try some Valvolene 10W60 but very happy with the results from the Gulf oil.
Even after fitting the pump you could make the light flicker try trying to stall the engine, not a hint of a problem now.


Went over to Cadwell after for a look around to see what may be racing tomorrow, looks like it'll be pretty full grids, some top notch machinery there

Couldn't resist a few snaps on the banking from the Gooseneck down to Mansfield. Pink of course, but Tim has seen the car last Saturday and can confirm it is actually bright red!!

IMG_20190622_201538.jpg
IMG_20190622_201547.jpg
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

junior
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by junior »

Yep i believe its red ! Perhaps some 20/50 in the camera may cure that as well. :lol:

Veesix75
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Veesix75 »

Yes, I can confirm it is a lovely shade of red, zero pink. Looks very nice.

Kegsti66
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by Kegsti66 »

8-)

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KevJTD
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Re: My new project, finally got my integrale.

Post by KevJTD »

Had a great day out at Cadwell today, car behaved itself perfectly.
Quite a big crowd there too, the Sidecar Revival meeting is something I missed last year, I'll make a point of going again next time.
Some great machines in the display area with the likes of Steve Webster, Steve Parish and even the great Rolf Biland there with one of his old outfits taking part in the demonstration laps, they weren't exactly hanging about for demo laps either!

When I went up last night I picked up a program to see if our own John of Justsuds was there as he's a passenger on one of the classic sidecars. Didn't see his name so didn't look too hard in the paddock for him.
Racing today and there he is!
Found him in the paddock after his race which they pulled off in after a couple of laps only to hear they'd had a right old weekend of it.
When I'd been meandering around the paddock about 8ish last night they were still into an engine swap having pulled out of the Saturday race after blowing the bottom end out! Quite literally by the looks of the huge cracks and holes in the crankcase! Today's race issue was a sticking throttle on one carb, not the ideal situation with Cadwells' lack of runoff!

Was great to meet up again John, hope the trips onto the Continent soon work out better, the Sidecar paddock seems a real friendly place so at least you're amongst friends!

Noticed the car got a few folks stopping to have a look so not everyone is too young to know what it is!
Giulietta JTD 170
Lancia Delta integrale
Lancia Flavia coupe 1.8 1963
Lancia Dedra turbo
Renault Clio 197 RS

I'm bad with people things
But I should have tried more

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